All our American colleagues.....

What were you thinking?




{lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance}

The same thing as those who voted the Brexit

Originally Posted by Pepe Le Mokko

The same thing as those who voted the Brexit

a very fair point.....the world is quickly voting itself out of existence

Diseducation of the masses is fast becoming a global phenomenon.

Originally Posted by XOR LX

Diseducation of the masses is fast becoming a global phenomenon.

Referendum is will of people but still trying to make it "not binding".
Elections, whatsoever don't have sense anymore. Especially not in American elector system.

I'm going to cryosleep.
Wake me up where direct democracy come to life

Bad judgement IMO.. Just like the Brexit, the others wanted to win with a minority, misjudged and lost..

We are living in the time when the real life disasters are worse than a disaster movie..

To paraphrase REM:

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I don't feel fine...

I think that most important question now is
Did Punxsutawney Phil predict president?

Donald Trump is an obnoxious narcissistic buffoon a$$hole.

Tony, He's not on your Christmas card list, then....

Has to be said, hard to believe ... even after the stupidity of Brexit

Marine Le Pen next???

I gather from my daughter that the French electoral system is likely to preclude that scenario. But, who knows?

At least in the UK & USA voters elect those who are responsible for initiating laws.
To be contrasted with the EU where 28 unelected Commissioners perform this role.
If you can't throw out those who rule you where is democracy then?

Whereas in the UK, unelected Civil Servants (answerable to an unlelected Permanent Secretary who, in turn is answerable to a Minister & Parliament) draft laws for their political masters....

Is that so different from the (unelected) European Commission's position with respect to the (elected) European Parliament?

Shhhhhh Im one of those Civil Servants......

Hi Glenn,

Well yes. I believe there is a fundamental and oft not well understood difference which goes to the heart of national sovereignty & democracy.

Leaving aside for the moment the 'Sir Humphrey' effect, Civil servants are servants of the Crown in Parliament. The operative words being 'servant' and 'draft'. As you say they draft laws that they've been asked to draw at the behest of elected MPs sitting in Committees - not laws that they've dreamed up themselves. If we don't like the general direction MPs/Government take with respect to initiating new legislation then we can throw the devils out next time. Not so with the EU Commission. They don't operate at the behest of the EP, rather the other way around and we can't throw them out.

On the general point of this anti-Brexit anti-Trump thread. One thing is clear and I would suggest beyond doubt and accepted by just about any commentator that I've heard from either left or right, and that's this. The ruling elites around the globe, generally made up of (sometime failed) career politicians have completely lost touch with those they're meant to serve and have become a self-serving, self preserving cancer in society. The little people are now having their say.

Let's give the guy a chance. At the very least it will be instructive to see what someone who's never held any sort of governmental office can do. The way governments organise and operate at the moment is just dividing society and causing tensions on the streets, not least in Europe.

I was particularly struck this morning at the immediate reaction of Mario Monti the ex PM of Italy and EU Commissioner - now Chairman of the High Level Group on Own Resources for the EU Commission who said that "Donald Trump’s election victory has strengthened the case for an EU army and increased European integration."

These people just don't get it. Their reaction to any event that goes against their incestual group-think is always bigger and deeper government.

Well the times they are a'changing.

This morning I am scared of the future. The man is unpredictable but he has the mandate of the people (read lesser educated, white males living in rural America) as they did not vote to change Congress. We will only know what the future brings when the future arrives. ;(

I think the Polls are partly to blame, - if they did not publish there results until after the event they might be more often correct. It is like a someone going back in a time machine and channging something. It can chuck a Spanner in the Works. It can tip the scales in the wrong direction. Dangerous
If someone thinks someone already knows what they are going to do , then sometimes will do differently just to be "Human" and rebel against being a predictable machine. It can tip the scales in the wrong direction
Dangerous

Hi Alan,

I think we need to separate Trump on the stump, from the Trump in office. The two may not be the same at all. Different positions call for different rhetoric and presentation styles.

Neither do I accept the oft quoted lesser educated white redneck male in rural America reason. A recent major analysis published by Gallup in the Washington Post suggests otherwise. This was an impressive and detailed study which is well worth some study.

The standard economic measures of income and employment status show that, if anything,more affluent Americans favor Trump, even among white non-Hispanics. Employment status and occupational categories are among the least important explanatory variables for Trump favorability.

As with any statistical analysis the devil is in the detail and the conclusions that are drawn. Whilst it's true that the study indicates that Trump's supporters tend to be blue-collar men with lower levels of education important questions remain. For instance, do these people support Trump because they are on the margins of the economy or for other reasons? The study's results suggest that personal finances cannot alone account for Trump's appeal. His popularity with less-educated men is probably due to some other trait that these supporters share. i.e. Correlation is not the same as Cause.

And I would argue that ironically the fact that both houses are now controlled by Republicans, many of whom disagree with Trump, may well be a bigger controlling factor on him than if the houses were split.

As you suggest, interesting times ahead. As Kierkegaard said "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards"

Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey

At least in the UK & USA voters elect those who are responsible for initiating laws.
To be contrasted with the EU where 28 unelected Commissioners perform this role.
If you can't throw out those who rule you where is democracy then?

As a matter of fact the European Commission only initiates laws and sees to it that they are executed. They do not adopt laws which is done by the European Council.

F.i. in Belgium anyone can become Minister ( under certain conditions) and does not have to be elected ( although it is customary to appoint a member of Parliament).

The Government initiates laws and sees to their execution but does not make or approve law. ( sorry for my English these are difficult matters)

I think the situation is similar in the US ( except for the President of course) and many other countries

I don't think John Kerry is a Senator or Congressman now although he is Secretary of State

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the EU. Like an array formula, it has its fans and its detractors.... Me, I'm a euro-enthusiast: my career is/was built on EU rules (all adopted by the elected Council of Ministers or by the elected Parliament itself).

I am currently sitting in Heathrow, travelling to Delhi for a couple of days, brandishing my Irish passport. Post-Brexit, my British passport has become a symbol of the embarrassing shambles that an increasingly xenophobic UK, fueled by the lies in the rightist hate-comics that pretend to be newspapers, has become. My UK passport is safely locked up in my gun safe at home.

Originally Posted by Pepe Le Mokko

As a matter of fact the European Commission only initiates laws and sees to it that they are executed. They do not adopt laws which is done by the European Council.

I'm sorry Pepe but that is completely wrong.
From the EC's Web site

The European Council defines the EU's overall political direction and priorities. It is not one of the EU's legislating institutions, so does not negotiate or adopt EU laws. Instead it sets the EU's policy agenda, traditionally by adopting 'conclusions' during European Council meetings which identify issues of concern and actions to take.

That's my whole point. Unelected people are initiating laws. Your casual use of the adverb 'only' is extremely interesting and in a word explains why there is such a huge divide and an inability to understand why that is.

For me and many many others that is not democracy or sovereignty as we know and understand it.
All other factors or claimed benefits pale into insignificance in the face of this huge democratic deficit which is why at last we are on the road to Brexit. .

As Churchill put it on a couple of occasions

"We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed."

and in a row with de Gaulle on the eve of the Normandy landings
"If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea."

Plus ca change

@Glenn. We will indeed have to agree to disagree.

Just out of interest and after Brexit has happened would you renew your British Passport?

Yes. Once Corbyn has been swept away and Labour is electable once again....

A quirk of living in NI is that we can all (automatically) have dual citizenship. British, or Irish or (like me) both.

As a few have pointed out, Trump the president may well not be the same character as Trump the stump. However, what saddens or frustrates me is that the rhetoric he used and the persona he adopted throughout the campaign process was full of xenophobia (a globally spreading disease?), disrespect, mistrust, and intolerance towards virtually every minority within reach. Maybe he won't actually govern that way, but enough people seemed to have felt comfortable voting for such ideas. Way more than justifiable by the white, male, rural american theory, although I don't doubt support is thick there.

From European point of view today is another 9/11

Originally Posted by zbor

From European point of view today is another 9/11

Really!

Are you saying that there are people in Europe who are suffering or will suffer as much as those who lost their lives in the twin towers and their families who continue to grieve?

I understand many of you may be feeling a bit raw today, just as you did on June 23rd, but in the pantheon of outrageous similes that must surely take the biscuit.

No, RB.
I'm saying today is 9th November

Trump did carry rural America. If you look at the vote counts by county across the entire US, rural US is very red and the metropolitan urban areas are very blue. Rural America came out in force for this man. What I cannot understand is how so many women in this country supported him especially after the Billy Bush debacle and how any person of Hispanic heritage could accept this man as the new leader of our Republic. How do we explain to our children that this man is our leader and how he got there after what he has continually said.

We have no way of knowing if Trump as President will be "Presidential" or will he continue to present the image that Trump on the Stump has presented for the last 18 months.

Richard, I think you nailed it with this one:

As Kierkegaard said "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards"

Originally Posted by zbor

No, RB.
I'm saying today is 9th November

Let's have the whole quote. You said "Today is another 9/11".
Presumably because of the co-incidence in the way the US and the rest of us reverse the days and months. Only you know that.

At it's basic that is true but you would know of course that 9/11 has a certain resonance around the world.

Would you have said "Today is another 10/11" had the results been known today? Of course not since the word 'another' would have been unremarkable and redundant. There is nothing special about 10 November (other than the start of the fall of the Berlin wall).

I detect a certain amount of wriggle here. At least be honest about what you said and meant and reflect and withdraw it if you wish.

Originally Posted by alansidman

Trump did carry rural America. ..... What I cannot understand is how so many women in this country supported him especially after the Billy Bush debacle and how any person of Hispanic heritage could accept this man as the new leader of our Republic.

Hi Alan,

We spent a month or so in the USA recently and earlier in the year in Cuba and had many conversations with Americans on the subject. I was struck by the fact that with rare exceptions most were gritting their teeth and going to vote Clinton, which even then seemed at odds with most of the more finely balanced polling.

Hence like you I'm very surprised that the result was as close as it was.

It's not an answer to your question but what seem clear (and I think it was similar with Brexit) is that it was the shy vote, those who prefer not to be seen to be against the group-think, that the pollsters failed to pick up and there are lessons to learn from that.

As an aside I was struck by your use of the term republic. I had never previously thought of the USA as being a Republic. Maybe Democracy or Republic is largely a semantical argument but it did cause me to do some googling in an attempt to understand the distinctions.

I still think the Polls can have an adverse effect. – If you are keen for a candidate to win, but would rather they did not get such a majority, then on seeing the Polls predicting a certain win for your candidate, you may choose to vote for the opponent to balance it out a bit. Or you would not make the effort to vote if you were a bit busy and thought your candidate would win anyway. – and yes, you likely keep that to yourself.. and so do a few others ....
Certainly I have sometimes voted that way in the past.
IMO Polls are bad. It turns it into a bit of Entertainment. Polls should be banned IMO until after the last vote is made. I think this would help one concentrate a bit more on thhe issues.

Originally Posted by Glenn Kennedy

Tony, He's not on your Christmas card list, then....

No, he's on this list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lErIKELSex0

The only time he should be allowed near the White House is to clean the toilets.

Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey

Let's have the whole quote. You said "Today is another 9/11". Presumably because of the co-incidence in the way the US and the rest of us reverse the days and months. Only you know that.
At it's basic that is true but you would know of course that 9/11 has a certain resonance around the world. Would you have said "Today is another 10/11" had the results been known today? Of course not since the word 'another' would have been unremarkable and redundant. There is nothing special about 10 November (other than the start of the fall of the Berlin wall).

Trully, let's take a whole quote

From European point of view today is another 9/11

.
And yes, of course, due to co-incidence with famous 9/11 (US) and most (not all) rest of countries using 11/9 (US).
Although we don't use 9/11 as phrase I know it's used.
And because it's famous it was funny to make joke on date formats (and not on occasion itself). Add Trump to that and it's Hillaryous.
According to rep points someone else thought it's funny too.
Didn't expect everyone to like it but even less expected I would need to explain it.

Not that I care much about who is new president and also not that I think dd.mm is better than mm/dd.
Actually, better would be to use yyyy-mm-dd and without year portion mm-dd is closer to US format (so I don't know why they don't push that way?!) although without year dd-mm seems more natural for me, but that can be a habit. But that's another theme.

Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey

I detect a certain amount of wriggle here. At least be honest about what you said and meant and reflect and withdraw it if you wish.

So no wriggle at all. I meant at the first time to make joke of it and I still find that coincidence I've use equally funny.
Did I try to mock about lost lives in the twin towers? Surely not.

Since I've grow up in a war time I do know that lost. Doesn't matter is that one bomb in Paris, New York or 2 millions that was thrown in one town here during 3 months siege.

Originally Posted by Doc.AElstein

I still think the Polls can have an adverse effect. ....Polls should be banned IMO until after the last vote is made. I think this would help one concentrate a bit more on thhe issues.

I'm reasonably ambivalent about polls and shrug them off, doing no more than noting them.

But in a free country I totally reject the idea that they should be banned. How would you define a poll? Of one thing you can be certain, the law of unintended consequences would kick in.

Suppose a newspaper's columnist canvassed views for an article they were writing in which they evidenced their conclusions by referring to their canvassing statistics. Would that count as a poll? There's often a fine line with this sort of stuff.

What exercises me far more is the growth in postal voting in advance of the polling date. Leaving aside the increase in voting irregularity which has been amply demonstrated in some of our communities, early voters cannot then react to later events. The playing field is not level.

Hi Richerd

Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey

......in a free country I totally reject the idea that they should be banned. How would you define a poll? Of one thing you can be certain, the law of unintended consequences would kick in....

I agree it is a bit of a fine line and difficult to define what a Poll is. And very difficult to define what you would Ban.
Possibly I had meant, and should have said, the Banning of Publishing of the Poll until after the last vote is made, as that is what I was saying had the adverse effects. I did not explain myself to clear there, sorry.


Regarding what an how you would ban that Publishing... Well. .. People have the right to do some other things at home or somewhere not “open” for all to see. You maybe cannot and should not ban people for asking and building up statistics for making a Poll. But just as publishing or doing some things in the “open” is banned, I think you could make the law of not being able to publish polls on an Election before the end of voting.
I think often Canvassing is often banned in some Elections within a certain radius of a polling station. I am talking about banning publishing the results before the end of voting. Similar idea I think. But difficult to say if you are protecting people or preventing freedom of speech and the right of airing opinions.
I agree in a free country it is difficult to justify banning these sort of things. But as we have seen, for example since the 11th September, 2001, in the greatest emergency to prevent such extreme disasters many things regarded previously as being unquestionable and essential rights of a free country were done away with.
I am not comparing the disaster of the Elections we have been talking about with that of the 11th September, 2001 ...... yet !

Alan

P.S. As for Zbor’s Joke. I laughed my bum off. Sorry. I do not think he feels anything but sadness over 11th September, 2001. I am far away from a Saint, but I feel nothing but sadness over 11th September, 2001. I still find it hard to believe, and think about it often.
One of the strengths of a democracy is being able to laugh over such a thing, whilst still feeling sincerely about it, deep down. It can help.
Not too long after 11th September, 2001, I saw a Muslim Comedian in a Pub. There was still the memory fairly fresh of 11th September, 2001, and I think it made it difficult for her to be accepted. Some time toward the end she said. “...My name is skjkjhdKADB , I'm a Comedian...... - at least that is what it says on my Private Pilot licence....” I found it Funny, most people fell over laughing. But it did not stop me feeling genuinely sad about 11th September, 2001 , at the same time. Laughing over such a thing might be considered blasphemy and I would be punished for it in some countries, Banned or even put to death. In a true democracy, I would not. But many people would hate me forever for laughing. But I would fight to the death for their right to hate me. That is perhaps the important difference.

Charles Williams doesn’t seem too impressed
https://fastexcel.wordpress.com/2016...-2-trump-wins/

I'm not lesser educated.

Why would we be expected to believe anything that she said?

At least now we can hope that some of this crazy immigration policy will be amended.
Now we can hope that we'll be told the truth.
Now we can say "Merry Christmas" and "God Bless you".

I guess I'd better get myself a brown shirt

Am I even allowed to post on this thread?

Three of my Grandparents were Canadian!

You mean Dual Citizenship "is available"?

I doubt that I could afford it anyway. BTW my other Grandparent was from Holland - can I get citizenship there too

At 77 I just need a place where I can afford to croak

As far as the most openly Dutch politician supporter of Donald Trump is concerned you can't: he wants to close borders too after his grandfather joined in from Indonesia.

Apparently the latest influx is the most fervent advocate of closing the fence after they slid in.

I wonder when the book burnings will begin????

Y'all probably didn't realize that there were (are) so many stupid Americans.

Torquemada was a converso.

Originally Posted by Tony Valko

Y'all probably didn't realize that there were (are) so many stupid Americans.

.. or Brits, for that matter.

waived in front of all of the anti-government zombies

I really don't understand you guys - why do you think that only you can be right?

"Roses are red
Violets are blue
My Father has a green lawnmower
And I can swim" -My childhood friend Ronnie

Don't forget...

He knows more about isis than the Generals.

I find it hard to believe that some people can't/don't see that this guy is just a shyster/charlatan/scam artist/con man.

Hopefully, he'll be removed from office for being incompetent. Although, Mr Excitement, Mike Pence, isn't much better.

I expect that when you get privy to the things that mostly just a president and a few others are then it is likely a big shock and ( hopefully ) the amazing responsibility that then drops on your shoulders may clear out a lot of stupidity and force a certain rethink and rationalisation in your thinking.
Also if you truly believe you can do a job the best you may be inclined to say anything that would help get you elected so as to be elected.
OK I am clutching on straws, trying to keep a bit Optimistic




The Rambo Films were on the telly here last night..
-.. A few thoughts struck my mind.

I was never quite sure if Rambo was the supposed to be the hero or not. He seemed to be saving and fighting American’s at different times. I remember in some secret mission that then got public when it went wrong, Ronald Reagan said once he was going to send in Rambo to sort it out. I was not sure if he meant Rambo should go and fight the American’s there?
Civil War seems to be a bit of a tradition.
And a president may have to let a child die to save 100,000 children’s lives. More often than not it is clear that he let a child die but almost impossible to show or explain how that saved 100,000 people’s lives. Then all sorts of Stories get made up or assumed.
Inevitably a situation arises where none of us really have a clue how to judge the Powers that be.

@ Tony
I just googled ISIS and some strange things happened and my Firewall went a bit crazy. I wonder when Rambo will be knocking at my door

Hi AB33

Originally Posted by AB33

Alan,
Use "Deash" is more appropriate word for "ISIS"

I think I will give it a miss - Googling ISIS once has probably just put me on a suspected terrorist list.
( In Germany they always refer to them officially as "The group calling themselves ISIS" or the "So called Islamic State" )

@Tony:

I find it hard to believe that some people can't/don't see that this guy is just a shyster/charlatan/scam artist/con man.

There you go again, sitting on the fence

Let's not forget something, Ms Clinton won the popular vote...But...Mr Trump gets the nod from the Electoral College.

Yes, Trump won the Electoral College, and as it should be, he's elected President. Just because a couple of states (California/New York) have a bigger pop, doesn't mean alone they should elect the President.

demos = populus = people

A democracy in which the popular vote is discarded is a contradictio in terminis.

What seems amusing was that you ended up with two candidates that NOBODY wanted to vote for (apparently). So it was very much a vote for the candidate you disliked least.

That said, I'm struggling to vote for anyone over here these days. Doesn't seem to matter what brand, I wouldn't trust any of them.

Far better to live in a country which not only doesn't have proportional representation but also doesn't allow one to vote for its leader.

Originally Posted by snb

demos = populus = people

A democracy in which the popular vote is discarded is a contradictio in terminis.

No doubt we could have a really pedantic debate about what demos means and I'm sure there would be many fine and subtle arguments over the classical meaning, the pragmatic meaning, the realpolitik meaning and maybe others.

What I find somewhat ironical, not to say hypocritical though here in Brexit land, is that I sense all the same people who argue against first past the post in favour of proportional representation tend to be Remainers who argue fervently for overturning or frustrating the referendum result, completely ignoring the fact that this was passed based on a strict PR basis.

Cibus quia cogitatio

Apparantly in three States the Poll machines were hacked according to latest German News.. Maybe we have not finished with the Election...

Originally Posted by Doc.AElstein

Apparantly in three States the Poll machines were hacked according to latest German News.. Maybe we have not finished with the Election...

Do you mean that German News is re-reporting the claim made in the New York Magazine based apparently on information put before the Clinton campaign team by a group of election lawyers and computer scientists 6 days ago, or that the German News has original information?

Given that there are strict deadlines for formal objections to the count which are about to run out, the fact that 6 days has elapsed might suggest that after presumably much analysis and debate the 'evidence' is not as clear cut as claimed.

Not saying that there isn't some analysis which might point to higher Trump support in counties that use electronic machines connected to the internet as opposed to counties that use paper ballots, but correlation is not the same as causation, and there's no doubt non-hacking reasons for apparently skewed results.

The Wisconsin deadline is this Friday so if that passes then we can presumably draw the conclusion that the Clinton team think there's no mileage in it.

Hi Richard.

Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey

Do you mean that German News is re-reporting the claim made in the New York Magazine based apparently on information put before the Clinton campaign team by a group of election lawyers and computer scientists 6 days ago, or that the German News has original information?.....

They seen to be talking about it on the News ( ntv ) as if it is actual. But on their Web site they show this:

..... "...... http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Experten-...e19159646.html

Mittwoch, 23. November 2016
Wissenschaftler haben Hinweise auf Unregelmäßigkeiten bei den US-Präsidentschaftswahlen in mehreren Bundesstaaten gefunden. Wie der Sender CNN und das "New York Magazine"berichten, haben mehrere Informatiker die unterlegene Präsidentschaftskandidatin Hillary Clinton und ihr Team aufgefordert, eine Neuauszählung der Stimmen in den Staaten Wisconsin, Michigan und Pennsylvania zu beantragen. Die Wissenschaftler haben eigenen Angaben zufolge Hinweise darauf, dass die Gesamtergebnisse in diesen Staaten gehackt oder anders manipuliert worden sein könnten....."


That "New York Magazine"
takes you here
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...n-results.html
which is a report from yeasterday......

So maybe the only new stuff is

"......Hillary Clinton is being urged by a group of prominent computer scientists and election lawyers to call for a recount in three swing states won by Donald Trump, New York has learned........."

_.. but as you suggest the main report stems from last Thursday.

Alan

"And to the Republic for which it stands"

I learned that line about 72 years ago - I guess some Americans have yet to learn it!:|

@ Orin
@ All my fellow Americans

Fear not...been around a long time...more than most of you...our Children are our and the Country's legacy...we've taught them...they've learned from us...do not despair...we'll be fine.

We've survived the Wallace's, the Nixon's, the Goldwater's, the McCarthy's and, yes, even the Clinton years (though I thought he was a good President in spite of his peccadillo's).

God Bless ALL of us...God Bless America...we'll survive...fear not...of course, we gotta pray a lot...but we can do that if we should so choose...I choose.

John

I really liked Clinton and I didn't mind his peccadillo's - but, his lies (if any) were never exposed.

A Southern Gentleman is not supposed to expose a lady friend - so that was a "White" lie.

Hillary's lies are not in that category and people died from her ineptness