Excel vs Access what art the question?

Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".

I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for the next
days data.

Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III under --
you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11

Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to the
Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!

Phil Montgomery

It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be a
word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has its
function.

Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record count
begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.

I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and now I
do not suffer from those limitations.


--
Damon Longworth

Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
Sept 16th and 17th
Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
www.ExcelUserConference.com


"PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
>
> I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for the
> next
> days data.
>
> Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III under --
> you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
>
> Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to the
> Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
>
> Phil Montgomery
>

Damon,

I forgot to mention -- theme park has a "daily" report that multiple
departments MUST enter data into during the day and evening. It resides on a
shared server.

Can't tell you how many times I would be leaving at night listening to a
supervisor groaning because the sheet was open on another PC whose user had
gone home for the night.

I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know enough
about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the job
and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.

Retirement, where art thou.

"Damon Longworth" wrote:

> It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
> but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be a
> word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has its
> function.
>
> Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record count
> begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
> this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
> should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.
>
> I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
> projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
> tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and now I
> do not suffer from those limitations.
>
>
> --
> Damon Longworth
>
> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
> Sept 16th and 17th
> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
> www.ExcelUserConference.com
>
>
> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
> >
> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for the
> > next
> > days data.
> >
> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III under --
> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
> >
> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to the
> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
> >
> > Phil Montgomery
> >
>
>
>

Dig into Access. I am sure you can remember a time when Excel was knew to
you. Start small and in time you will know enough to get the project
migrated.

--
Damon Longworth

Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
Sept 16th and 17th
Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
www.ExcelUserConference.com


"PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:D149F5A4-A2BC-4D9E-8D0F-15F5F9841DFD@microsoft.com...
> Damon,
>
> I forgot to mention -- theme park has a "daily" report that multiple
> departments MUST enter data into during the day and evening. It resides
> on a
> shared server.
>
> Can't tell you how many times I would be leaving at night listening to a
> supervisor groaning because the sheet was open on another PC whose user
> had
> gone home for the night.
>
> I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know
> enough
> about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the
> job
> and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.
>
> Retirement, where art thou.
>
> "Damon Longworth" wrote:
>
>> It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
>> but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be
>> a
>> word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has
>> its
>> function.
>>
>> Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record
>> count
>> begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
>> this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
>> should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.
>>
>> I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
>> projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
>> tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and
>> now I
>> do not suffer from those limitations.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Damon Longworth
>>
>> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
>> Sept 16th and 17th
>> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
>> www.ExcelUserConference.com
>>
>>
>> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
>> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
>> >
>> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
>> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
>> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for
>> > the
>> > next
>> > days data.
>> >
>> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III
>> > under --
>> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
>> >
>> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to
>> > the
>> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
>> >
>> > Phil Montgomery
>> >
>>
>>
>>

It is currently on paper and in my head. Part of my problem is the layout
(data structure) changes every couple of days.


"Damon Longworth" wrote:

> Dig into Access. I am sure you can remember a time when Excel was knew to
> you. Start small and in time you will know enough to get the project
> migrated.
>
> --
> Damon Longworth
>
> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
> Sept 16th and 17th
> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
> www.ExcelUserConference.com
>
>
> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:D149F5A4-A2BC-4D9E-8D0F-15F5F9841DFD@microsoft.com...
> > Damon,
> >
> > I forgot to mention -- theme park has a "daily" report that multiple
> > departments MUST enter data into during the day and evening. It resides
> > on a
> > shared server.
> >
> > Can't tell you how many times I would be leaving at night listening to a
> > supervisor groaning because the sheet was open on another PC whose user
> > had
> > gone home for the night.
> >
> > I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know
> > enough
> > about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the
> > job
> > and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.
> >
> > Retirement, where art thou.
> >
> > "Damon Longworth" wrote:
> >
> >> It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
> >> but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be
> >> a
> >> word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has
> >> its
> >> function.
> >>
> >> Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record
> >> count
> >> begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
> >> this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
> >> should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.
> >>
> >> I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
> >> projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
> >> tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and
> >> now I
> >> do not suffer from those limitations.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Damon Longworth
> >>
> >> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
> >> Sept 16th and 17th
> >> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
> >> www.ExcelUserConference.com
> >>
> >>
> >> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> >> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
> >> >
> >> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> >> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> >> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for
> >> > the
> >> > next
> >> > days data.
> >> >
> >> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III
> >> > under --
> >> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
> >> >
> >> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to
> >> > the
> >> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
> >> >
> >> > Phil Montgomery
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

hi, Phil !

> It is currently on paper and in my head.
> Part of my problem is the layout (data structure) changes every couple of days.

IF you/he feel comfortable with Excel...
IF macros are NOT an enterprise's policy lack...
IF your/his *only* problem is to be sure that nobody goes home forgetting to close *the file*
(I guess) you could implement a *tricky* procedure that *reach the goal*
could we go thru that?

hth,
hector.

I wonder if they have proper auditing and validation and testing in the
spreadsheets as well.

To run an enterprise on Excel is stupid IMO but if you do take that path you
have to make sure that you have very tight procedures and processes.
Unfortunately it is hard to believe that the mind-set that would allow Excel
to proliferate like that could grasp that fact, so they probably have the
worst of all worlds, and probably don't even know it.

As Damon says, utilise the best tool for the job. IMO that is not Access,
SQL Server is better, but Access is better than using Excel as a database.
There are so many ways to inter-connect and utilise the data stored
elsewhere that there is no excuse that I can see.

As to using Access, it is not difficult. Sit down and play with it. Give
yourself a project, like cataloguing your music collection, and you will be
amazed at how quickly you can get to grips with it. As for the varying data
you mention, surely that must be a relatively small proportion of the total
dataset, so just park it off somewhere, a flat file in Access or even a text
file, and accept that maybe the access code for that might change regularly.

BTW, in case you don't know, the elusive Aaron is some a*£!#*e that every so
often flames a set of posts telling everyone to ditch Excel and use Access.
That is just as misguided as the guy who suggested doing the opposite, and
Harlan Grove spent many hours of intellect trying to convince that it is
horses for courses, but he is an evangelist.

Regards

Bob


"PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
>
> I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for the
next
> days data.
>
> Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III under --
> you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
>
> Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to the
> Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
>
> Phil Montgomery
>

Is an intersting thread.

I started using access in much more depth before I even went near excel.

I now find excel much more widespread and the use of domino and excel in a lot of orgs.

I have recently created an interesting workbook to work like a db but to only be used by 3 or 4 people. The way i have designed it means there is no real limitation due to servers and records because it will only be used by one or two people and exclusivity is never an issue with use.

The data collected will be transfered to another larger db but the users of the spreadsheet do not have access to the larger db as it is in sap.

Its just a quick interim solution.

Take a look at my post in this forum recently and you will see the attachment.

Rob

Damon,

I cut my "spreadsheet" teeth on Multi-Plan and SuperCalc!

Phil

"Damon Longworth" wrote:

> Dig into Access. I am sure you can remember a time when Excel was knew to
> you. Start small and in time you will know enough to get the project
> migrated.
>
> --
> Damon Longworth
>
> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
> Sept 16th and 17th
> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
> www.ExcelUserConference.com
>
>
> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:D149F5A4-A2BC-4D9E-8D0F-15F5F9841DFD@microsoft.com...
> > Damon,
> >
> > I forgot to mention -- theme park has a "daily" report that multiple
> > departments MUST enter data into during the day and evening. It resides
> > on a
> > shared server.
> >
> > Can't tell you how many times I would be leaving at night listening to a
> > supervisor groaning because the sheet was open on another PC whose user
> > had
> > gone home for the night.
> >
> > I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know
> > enough
> > about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the
> > job
> > and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.
> >
> > Retirement, where art thou.
> >
> > "Damon Longworth" wrote:
> >
> >> It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
> >> but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be
> >> a
> >> word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has
> >> its
> >> function.
> >>
> >> Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record
> >> count
> >> begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
> >> this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
> >> should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.
> >>
> >> I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
> >> projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
> >> tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and
> >> now I
> >> do not suffer from those limitations.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Damon Longworth
> >>
> >> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
> >> Sept 16th and 17th
> >> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
> >> www.ExcelUserConference.com
> >>
> >>
> >> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> >> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
> >> >
> >> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> >> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> >> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for
> >> > the
> >> > next
> >> > days data.
> >> >
> >> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III
> >> > under --
> >> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
> >> >
> >> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to
> >> > the
> >> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
> >> >
> >> > Phil Montgomery
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

Bob,

I don't work for that particular enterprise any more. You must realize
though, that Guest Satisfaction and Marketing (getting the most money from
each guest) are primary at theme parks. IS drives the front gate sales
effort and POS systems. Backroom accounting and other reporting is an after
thought. Place has been owned by SONY, Seagrams and a couple of other
biggie's, now owned by an even bigger entity -- main concern, contrib to
bottom line. These folks would flip if they read the article I saw recently
about some casino in the southwest that uses a software package to track Slot
Machine action versus physical location and allows them to relocate machines
during the day to get better play from them. Anything these folks do needs
to Increase revenue without any expenses. (EBIDTA or something like that).

Dad worked for IBM -- once told me a story about Arthur Watson (Tom's
brother) and a statement he once made -- "IBM is the most successful
mis-managed corporation in the world". It's boggling to think how successful
some organizations might be if they actually did things the "right" way.

Personally, I liked dBase III+ and dBase IV.

I tend to panic. My project involves my job and doing things properly. We
are presently keeping track of things with pen and paper. We miss things on
a daily basis -- I sense this will come back to bite me in the butt.
Basically, I need a solution LAST WEEK. Upper managements 'tude is -- it's
your issue, you deal with it; and by the way, you have to use what you have,
you can't spend any money.

I will stick to it and overcome!!

Pass me that college ruled pad and that box of Dixon Number 2's!!

Phil


"Bob Phillips" wrote:

> I wonder if they have proper auditing and validation and testing in the
> spreadsheets as well.
>
> To run an enterprise on Excel is stupid IMO but if you do take that path you
> have to make sure that you have very tight procedures and processes.
> Unfortunately it is hard to believe that the mind-set that would allow Excel
> to proliferate like that could grasp that fact, so they probably have the
> worst of all worlds, and probably don't even know it.
>
> As Damon says, utilise the best tool for the job. IMO that is not Access,
> SQL Server is better, but Access is better than using Excel as a database.
> There are so many ways to inter-connect and utilise the data stored
> elsewhere that there is no excuse that I can see.
>
> As to using Access, it is not difficult. Sit down and play with it. Give
> yourself a project, like cataloguing your music collection, and you will be
> amazed at how quickly you can get to grips with it. As for the varying data
> you mention, surely that must be a relatively small proportion of the total
> dataset, so just park it off somewhere, a flat file in Access or even a text
> file, and accept that maybe the access code for that might change regularly.
>
> BTW, in case you don't know, the elusive Aaron is some a*£!#*e that every so
> often flames a set of posts telling everyone to ditch Excel and use Access.
> That is just as misguided as the guy who suggested doing the opposite, and
> Harlan Grove spent many hours of intellect trying to convince that it is
> horses for courses, but he is an evangelist.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob
>
>
> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
> >
> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for the
> next
> > days data.
> >
> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III under --
> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
> >
> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to the
> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
> >
> > Phil Montgomery
> >
>
>
>

Hi PhilMontUSDA,

> I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know
> enough
> about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the
> job
> and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.

You may be interested in the OpenOffice which includes a suite of programs
compatible with MSOffice. The suite includes a database programme (Base)
which may suit your purposes.

The OpenOffice suite is often recommended in this group because of the
reported ability of its spreadsheet component to open XL files which XL
baulks at opening.

For details of the suite and its component programmes see:

http://www.openoffice.org/product2/index.html

It is available for free download at:

http://www.openoffice.org/

The download is > 60MB but there is also a CD option.

The Base database component meets your budget requirement, the usefulness to
you is something that you need to check for yourself.


---
Regards,
Norman



"PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:D149F5A4-A2BC-4D9E-8D0F-15F5F9841DFD@microsoft.com...
> Damon,
>
> I forgot to mention -- theme park has a "daily" report that multiple
> departments MUST enter data into during the day and evening. It resides
> on a
> shared server.
>
> Can't tell you how many times I would be leaving at night listening to a
> supervisor groaning because the sheet was open on another PC whose user
> had
> gone home for the night.
>
> I have an application at work that should be in a dBase -- don't know
> enough
> about Access to set it up, can't find an off the shelf product to do the
> job
> and, agency has $0.00 for me to do the project.
>
> Retirement, where art thou.
>
> "Damon Longworth" wrote:
>
>> It is not unusual to see Excel used as a database. Excel is a great tool,
>> but was not designed to be a database. Just as it was not designed to be
>> a
>> word processor. Excel is part of a "suite" for a reason. Each part has
>> its
>> function.
>>
>> Excel can be used as a database, but has its limits. Once the record
>> count
>> begins to grow into the 10's of thousands, you begin to have problems. At
>> this point, you find yourself migrating the project to Access where it
>> should have originated or you try to make the best of a bad situation.
>>
>> I am not an expert with Access, but can use it. Now, I think about my
>> projects before I started using Access. It was like working with one hand
>> tied behind my back. There were so many things that I could not do and
>> now I
>> do not suffer from those limitations.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Damon Longworth
>>
>> Don't miss out on the 2005 Excel User Conference
>> Sept 16th and 17th
>> Stockyards Hotel - Ft. Worth, Texas
>> www.ExcelUserConference.com
>>
>>
>> "PhilMontUSDA" <PhilMontUSDA@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:1482EE13-5D53-4FAC-8E5E-F65FDDBC15A2@microsoft.com...
>> > Bob Phillips, Damon Longworth, elusive "Aaron".
>> >
>> > I can name a fairly large theme park in central Florida with an
>> > 'electrifiying' parent that uses Excel for almost ALL of its day to day
>> > finacial reporting. Creating a new "blank" worksheet each night for
>> > the
>> > next
>> > days data.
>> >
>> > Oh, there is also a critical system the operates on a Pentium III
>> > under --
>> > you'd better be sitting ------- WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
>> >
>> > Talk about coming into the 21st Century. These folks haven't got to
>> > the
>> > Future, don't know how they can go Back to the Future!!!
>> >
>> > Phil Montgomery
>> >
>>
>>
>>

"Phil Montgomery" <PhilMontgomery@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:F3084175-6BB2-41A8-A7BB-7525E846AF16@microsoft.com...
> Bob,
>
> I don't work for that particular enterprise any more. You must realize
> though, that Guest Satisfaction and Marketing (getting the most money from
> each guest) are primary at theme parks. IS drives the front gate sales
> effort and POS systems. Backroom accounting and other reporting is an
after
> thought. Place has been owned by SONY, Seagrams and a couple of other
> biggie's, now owned by an even bigger entity -- main concern, contrib to
> bottom line. These folks would flip if they read the article I saw
recently
> about some casino in the southwest that uses a software package to track
Slot
> Machine action versus physical location and allows them to relocate
machines
> during the day to get better play from them. Anything these folks do
needs
> to Increase revenue without any expenses. (EBIDTA or something like that).

I know that attitude Phil. Even in big organisations that understand the
value of centralised IT systems, like financil organisations, there are
always pockets that take the same attitude, usually to try and win some
brownie points at the cost of the roganisation.

> Dad worked for IBM -- once told me a story about Arthur Watson (Tom's
> brother) and a statement he once made -- "IBM is the most successful
> mis-managed corporation in the world". It's boggling to think how
successful
> some organizations might be if they actually did things the "right" way.

No, my old company was. Made billions profit every year, but we once did
some rough calculations, and if the waste that we saw was removed and it
rolled out in equal measures over the company, profits could be 2-3 times as
high.

> Personally, I liked dBase III+ and dBase IV.

No accounting for taste <vbg>