# Off Topic > Suggestions for Improvement >  >  newsletter

## royUK

I have now received the so called EF newletter to two email addresses. I'm not bothered that it contains no real news, just updates on what happened some time ago. It contains no tips or news about future events - no August competition

What concerns me is that
1.I didn't subscribe to this so it's spam.
2.It was sent by a third party site, so my email addresses have been passed on. In most countries this is illegal.
3.The second one that I received came to my gmail account which is not registered here, *but Vai has it*. So somehow my non-registered email address has also been passed on.
4.I emailed EF admin & have received only a standard reply

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## Bob Phillips

I agree, I got one and I do not want it. Reading about the 'winners' of the nonsense competition s of no interest to me.

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## Pepe Le Mokko

Same for me. I posted here to complain about it yesterday, but my post vanished....

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## Vaibhav

If some one does not want the newsletter there is an UN-subscribe button at the bottom of it .. I am sure a lot of people would want to know whats happening on t he forum. 
The members who are not interested to receive the newsletter can just UN-subscribe  :Smilie:

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## Pepe Le Mokko

The question is not only about unsuscribing, the question is why my e mail address was in possession of a 3rd party ( joymotor.in) as the full header of the mail indicates , and this without my consent ?

The actual sender is joymotors, the excelforum addresses have been put in after to spoof the from address

The question is also why my post from yesterday on this subject was deleted????

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## Vaibhav

> I have now received the so called EF newletter to two email addresses. I'm not bothered that it contains no real news, just updates on what happened some time ago. It contains no tips or news about future events - no August competition
> 
> What concerns me is that
> 1.I didn't subscribe to this so it's spam.
> 2.It was sent by a third party site, so my email addresses have been passed on. In most countries this is illegal.
> 3.The second one that I received came to my gmail account which is not registered here, *but Vai has it*. So somehow my non-registered email address has also been passed on.
> 4.I emailed EF admin & have received only a standard reply



Roy,
Emails are only sent to the email Id's of members, you must have registered using your gmail id. If you want we can cross verify and let you know.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------





> The question is not only about unsuscribing, the question is why my e mail address was in possession of a 3rd party ( joymotor.in) as the full header of the mail indicates , and this without my consent ?
> 
> The actual sender is joymotors, the excelforum addresses have been put in after to spoof the from address
> 
> The question is also why my post from yesterday on this subject was deleted????




Email servers are always different from the main server the website is on, and its not a third party which sent the email. We used another server owned by us to send the newsletter. I have been into web and emails since the past 8 years now and sending newsletter to members through any of the servers owned by the company is not spam ...

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## Pepe Le Mokko

Would you then please prove that this this server is owned by the same company as excelforum ?

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## royUK

I may well have used gmail originally, but I must have changed it because it does not appear in my profile.

Why should I have to log onto an unknown web site to un-subscribe for something that I never subscribed to?

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## Bob Phillips

> Why should I have to log onto an unknown web site to un-subscribe for something that I never subscribed to?



Exactly the point I was going to make.

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## royUK

Potentially 300,000 hits for this web site. Could it be one of Vai's SEO clents?

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## Paul

> 1.I didn't subscribe to this so it's spam.



Incorrect in both the U.S. and U.K.  If you have a relationship (business or otherwise) with the originating party (ExcelForum.com in this case) they may contact you electronically and it is not considered spam.  It is not required that you subscribe to any such communication in this case.





> 2.It was sent by a third party site, so my email addresses have been passed on. In most countries this is illegal.



Not true.  Many companies today use third-party sites (e-mail warehouses, essentially) to route e-mails as those companies are "white-listed" - meaning they register with various associations/agencies/software companies so their e-mails are not blocked by filters in-transit or upon receipt.  I can't say anything about "joymotor.in" specifically, but Vai has stated his company owns that domain and he has not sold or shared your information outside of that umbrella.  If you don't believe that, research it yourself or challenge it in court.  Realize, of course, that U.S. and U.K. based laws and courts have little authority outside their borders.  (Although we like to think we do.)





> 3.The second one that I received came to my gmail account which is not registered here, but Vai has it. So somehow my non-registered email address has also been passed on.



As has been stated, it's likely you used it at one time and is now somewhere in the database.  Rule #1 of the Internet: Anything you put on the Internet, stays on the Internet. (Unless Chuck Norris wants it removed from the Internet.)

If you choose to Unsubscribe from the newsletter using the utility provided for such purpose, and you still receive the newsletter after a certain grace period (typically 30-60 days), that would likely be a breach of the Spam laws in either country and you would have reason to report it to your country's Spam enforcers (the ICO in the U.K., perhaps?).

When I get (real) Spam, I just make 2-3 mouse-clicks and add the sender to the Junk senders list, never to be bothered again.  Saves time and effort.

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## royUK

My gmail address should only have been in the database if I used it. Once I changed that field it should have been replaced by the new one, so saying that it will always remain is utter rubbish. I don't know where you get the facts that it is not illegal to pass on email lists but I'm sure that it is.

Anyway considering the managements history of not following up on it's "innovations" like the quiz there will probably not be another.

The other admin innovation that is used regularly, i.e closing threads that disagree with their actions will probably be applied here.

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## romperstomper

> Incorrect in both the U.S. and U.K.  If you have a relationship (business or otherwise) with the originating party (ExcelForum.com in this case) they may contact you electronically and it is not considered spam.  It is not required that you subscribe to any such communication in this case.



Can I ask on what you base that statement? Whilst it is true in a business context where there has been a sale of services (or negotiation thereof) I cannot see anything in the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003 that would cover this situation, which clearly falls under the definition of unsolicited bulk email (i.e. spam).

In any event, regardless of legality, which is always tricky where the internet is concerned, I don't think it does this forum any favours to automatically subscribe people to this 'feature', even had there been anything of any interest in the newsletter.

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## Paul

From the ICO's own website (http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public...am_emails.aspx), emphasis added by me:




> *What is spam?*
> Spam emails are emails sent to you without consent*. It is email that you don’t want and didn’t ask for, and its content can cause embarrassment and distress. However, it’s worth remembering that the sender generally doesn’t target recipients personally. The same spam email can be sent to millions of people at the same time and the addresses can often be guessed.
> 
> *What does the law say?*
> The Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003 cover the sending of email marketing. This legislation says that organisations must only send marketing emails to individuals if you have agreed to receive them, **except where there is a clearly defined customer relationship*.
> 
> Many spam emails come from outside the UK. The ICO can only investigate complaints about marketing emails from identifiable UK senders.
> 
> As a lot of spam comes from overseas, the Information Commissioner has an agreement with a number of overseas bodies to cooperate and exchange information to try and stop spam emails that are sent from those places.
> ...



By registering with the forum, you have a "clearly defined customer relationship" until you request to cease that relationship or opt-out of receiving e-mails (or other forms of communications) from them.  Without such a request that relationship exists until, well, you cease to exist.  (Depending on the business model, the business may persist beyond the existence of the owner or customer.)  For example, if you register at amazon.co.uk, you will automatically start receiving e-mails from them (and their affiliates) unless you opt-out.  You don't have to purchase anything - ever - just register.  There is no prompt during registration to opt out, you have to find your communications settings and change them.  

As for sharing e-mail/marketing lists - the legality is determined by what that sharing constitutes.  If it is simply for mail forwarding/processing/address verification then there is no issue. (Yes, there are stipulations, i.e. the data is destroyed by the third party upon completion of use, it is transferred securely, it is never divulged to additional 3rd parties, etc.)  I know this for a fact, having worked with our corporate legal and I.T. security teams in the U.S. and U.K. on multiple projects involving customer data retention, PCI/PA-DSS/other-acronyms compliance and marketing initiatives.  If the company that owns ExcelForum.com is SELLING your information to other companies - without your consent - so that THEY can use it for marketing, selling, data mining (etc.), then there are legal issues.

Simply put, just click the Unsubscribe link like you would have done had the e-mail been from any other company sending you e-mail that you didn't want, and go on with your life.  If you can't do that then please post a copy of every other forum post you've made on other companies' websites moaning about their subscription policies and bashing their owners.

Thank you.

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## romperstomper

1. I do not believe I could be construed a customer of this forum since there is nothing for sale.
2. There is no option for me to opt out of the newsletter until after they have already spammed me with it. I can opt out of pretty much all other communications but not that. Feel free to correct me.
3. I cannot recall having received any marketing emails from companies in the recent past that I did not tick a box somewhere for.

Your penultimate comment is ridiculous, not least because I don't believe I "bashed" the owners. Still, nothing less than I expected, so thank _you_ for your consistency if nothing else.

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## royUK

Speaks for itself





> What is spam?
> Spam emails are emails sent to you without consent*. It is email that you don’t want and didn’t ask for, and its content can cause embarrassment and distress. However, it’s worth remembering that the sender generally doesn’t target recipients personally. The same spam email can be sent to millions of people at the same time and the addresses can often be guessed.



I never agreed to receive this rubbish.

I did not agree to my email(s) being passed to a third party.

I am no way a "customer" here. I have never asked for assistance with a problem here.

It should have caused the admin/owners embarrassment because of the lack of genuine news and read-worthy articles.

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## arlu1201

I am not understanding why you are making an issue of this, Roy.

Havent you received such emails from other websites?  Have you gone about making an issue about it?  Or did you just click on the unsubscribe link?  Why cant you do the same here?

As already explained by Vai, your email ids were not passed to a third party.  Why do you keep repeating this?

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## Kyle123

None of us are customers here. We raise the profile of the site on google by answering questions, creating content and therefore driving traffic, driving product (guests) to the site who view adverts.

The customers are the people who pay Google for advertising.

Generally speaking if you are using a free product, it isn't the product, you are.

It's because of this that I'm often surprised regarding the willingness to appease senior members of the forum who answer questions, whilst true the "googleable" content will still get generated; the quality of answers will decline in line with "question answerers" and their reluctance to contribute. Surely this will lead to a reduction in traffic and revenues, commercially, surely it makes sense to keep the answerers sweet?

Or maybe I'm not being cynical enough - may be that's the intention, guests get no answers to their questions so click on the adverts carefully targeted to the content of the page?

You can see this in action at EE, whilst their users pay, they try to keep their product (answerers) sweet, reward them for generating original content in the form of articles and dole out t-shirts. - admittedly, their model is somewhat different but at heart both rely on the overwhelming power of "The Google"  :Wink:

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## royUK

I'm not the only one who is annoyed about this & I do not get newsletters from any other Forum or web site unless I have subscribed to them. If the newsletter was sent by joy motors then they have been given my email address.

All it needs is an apology from the ownwers & assurance that it won't happen again. As I said earlier why should I unsubscibe, I didn't agree to the subscription.

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## Pepe Le Mokko

Anyone know what happened to the thread I opened about this _joymotors_  site ?

Was it deleted as is customary here when the owner/admin doesn't like what you write ?

Oh yes, in that thread I asked Vai to prove that he also owned joymotors- No answer as usual

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## Richard Buttrey

> Anyone know what happened to the thread I opened about this _joymotors_  site ?
> 
> Was it deleted as is customary here when the owner/admin doesn't like what you write ?
> 
> Oh yes, in that thread I asked Vai to prove that he also owned joymotors- No answer as usual



Hi,

Can I suggest you pay attention in the Water Cooler where Arlette has already posted an explanation.

Can I also ask you to tone down your accusations. Unfounded and unfair criticism made solely to stir things up will not be tolerated. Post your evidence if you have something to say but don't throw out wild accusations.

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## snb

Can I ask you to repost the thread Pepe posted and which 'vanished' ?
Just to assess whether you are right mentioning unjust accusations.

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## Richard Buttrey

You can ask but the task of moderators is to moderate. It has never been the role of moderators, both in the old regime and now, to have to justify absolutely everything that we do. So the answer is no.

What we can't accept is the constant criticism, from a miniscule number of members, for what we judge is no good reason. You either accept our judgment and the right to make it or not. The choice is yours. 

Sorry to be so blunt but that's it. We are here to run the forum for the benefit of the vast majority who simply want responses to questions about Excel.

I hope you can understand this since you are a valued member of the community here.

I don't expect this to be the start of another diatribe knocking the forum mods.

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## royUK

I think the choice has been made by the majority of the most valued posters here. They don't answer questions anymore because the mods just woffle around valid criticism.

A far as I know genuine moderating has not been an issue, deleting threads because you don't like them is. Also, I have objected to misinterpretation of the rules.

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## arlu1201

As i have mentioned in the Water cooler thread, joymotors.in is our test site.  It also has enough server space which allows us to send out the newsletter.  If the newsletter was sent out from the EF server, none of us would have been able to access it, considering the load the email sending will put on it.

Hence, all future editions of the newsletter will go out from the joymotors server.  If anyone does not want to receive it, feel free to unsubscribe.

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## Pepe Le Mokko

> Hi,
> 
> Can I suggest you pay attention in the Water Cooler where Arlette has already posted an explanation.
> 
> Can I also ask you to tone down your accusations. Unfounded and unfair criticism made solely to stir things up will not be tolerated. Post your evidence if you have something to say but don't throw out wild accusations.



As what I state has been deleted promptly, this would be rather difficult to prove, wouldn't it?
I am just trying to know why and how my e-mail address ( amongts others) appeared in the mailing list of joymotors.in which we knew ( know) nothing about.

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## Domski

Can't remember if I got a newsletter or not but please remove me from any future mailings whether they are from here or your second hand car dealership.

Dom

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## Richard Buttrey

> As what I state has been deleted promptly, this would be rather difficult to prove, wouldn't it?
> I am just trying to know why and how my e-mail address ( amongts others) appeared in the mailing list of joymotors.in which we knew ( know) nothing about.



Hi,

I don't suppose it would be difficult to prove what you said. I guess Admin could resurrect the post so that we could all see, although I don't see that's necessary. As mods we have to be allowed to take decisions without every single move being questioned and argued about. And my default setting is that I accept the decisions of other mods. I know of no reason to do otherwise.

But if you'd like to PM me with the text of your deleted posting - I assume you can remember what you said, then I'll review it and if I think it wasn't unfair or didn't contain unfounded criticism then I'll take it up with the rest.

Re the newsletter. So Arlette has has now explained why the joy motors server was used (it's seemingly a connected business venture). It wasn't, as I understand it, a mailing from Joy Motors, but a mailing from EF which just happened to use a piece of kit that's also used by Joy Motors. To be perfectly honest I hadn't noticed when I received my email. 

The mistake seems to be that the email didn't remove any joy motors reference, if that's what you and Roy are in fact saying. OK it's a mistake. But anyone who never makes a mistake never makes anything. I really don't see anything too serious in this. Just respond to the newsletter and say unsubscribe.

You and Roy are very fortunate if you never ever get spam emails from any other source. I'll be highly surprised if you don't. So what do you do in those cases. Do you do nothing or unsubscribe yourself?

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## arlu1201

To add on to what Richard said, the reason why joymotors showed up in the newsletter email was because the joymotors email server was used to send out the newsletters.

As i said earlier, if we had to use the EF server, we would not have been able to use the forum at all, considering the load on the server.

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## Bob Phillips

Richard, 

I hope that I am considered a valuable member here. 
I certainly do not subscribe to the views of many of those who until recently were active in the operation of this site. 
I also see no reason to refrain from providing my support to poster who seek help at this site.
But I do believe that this newsletter process was a mistake. Notwithstanding that it was a very poor newsletter with very little content, it is totally unethical to send me a newsletter without my active consent. Sure, I get email that I didn't subscribe to, I believe that is classified as spam. As far as I am aware, any other forum that sends out email of any sort asks for permission by providing an option within one's profile.

As for suggesting that we unsubscribe, I personally have a policy of never unsubscribing from something that I never asked for as it is a way of confirming to the spammer that they have a valid email address. That may not apply here as you 'knew' in advance that these email addresses were wrong, but it is still wrong.

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## Simon Lloyd

> To add on to what Richard said, the reason why joymotors showed up in the newsletter email was because the joymotors email server was used to send out the newsletters.
> 
> As i said earlier, if we had to use the EF server, we would not have been able to use the forum at all, considering the load on the server.



Sorry Arlette, i have to dispell this where you keep saying joymotors appeared because its the test server...etc, the whole newletter was riddleded with links to cars as you'll find out by my unedited unformatted reproduction below showing the links.



> > <http://clients.seonext.com/exceltip/images/head.jpg> 
> > 
> > This newsletter will give you a bird's eye-view of the most recent happenings in our world at ExcelForum. The forum is always active with so much happening on it every now and then. We take this initiative to keep you updated with the forum trends and ongoing activities. Through our newsletters we will not only be in touch with you but it will also help you keep pace with the continued activities. You may contribute your bit whenever you find time!
> > 
> > We are pleased to have you as one of our esteemed users as we cross over 300000 members at ExcelForum. We hope to have your continued patronage with us. Also, if you wish to contribute to this newsletter in the forthcoming editions, feel free to contact us at admin@excelforum.com. We would be delighted to receive inputs from you.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Excel Forum New Features
> ...

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## arlu1201

Simon,

I have received the newsletter as well.  If i click on the names given - either the competition winners or the top posters, it directly links me to the excelforum profiles.  I do not see any links to cars.

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## Simon Lloyd

When i clicked the links as displayed above they took me exactly to where they are showing now and that was pages of cars, maybe things have been changed since the mailing but none the less ALL the links as you can see point to joymotors, i have not edited the newsletter in anyway, all i have done is taken a copy in plain text to reveal all the links.

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## Simon Lloyd

EDIT: i have now just checked those links and they NOW point to excel forum but when the newsletter was sent they pointed to pages at joymotors, so they HAVE been chenged since the mailing.

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## Richard Buttrey

Bob,

In my opinion you are an extremely valuable member, both here and elsewhere. En passant I also learned a lot from you on an Excel course in London (at Westminster University in Marylebone circa 2004/5 ??) and previously on all sorts of web sites where you regularly posted, particularly sumproduct stuff which you used in ways I never thought possible.

I don't disagree one iota. I too don't think the newsletter offered anything much at all. Maybe the next one will be different. Who knows.

I also agree with your last point. Quite right. I debated about mentioning it but didn't. All the advice seems to be not to respond to spam emails for the reason you give.

I'll offer just one wry comment. 
Fair dos to members like Roy, Pepe and others for being savvy enough to note that the unsubscribe link in the newsletter contained an apparently odd reference to Joy Motors which they didn't want to click. No doubt for the reason you've given. Well done them. Many people wouldn't I suspect notice. 
But it's interesting, I'll put it no stronger than that, that those very same people were apparently so equally sure that it was from Excel Forum that they took the trouble to write about it here.  :Confused: 

Either they really in their hearts knew it was from EF, (the clue being in the very specific user names of prolific monthly posters and post counts. No self respecting spammer would surely take the trouble to work all that out), and are just making mischief, or they genuinely didn't know but in which case why would their first postings here be suggestions of wrong doing rather than straightforward requests for information to enable them to establish the situation? 

I offer that thought with no comment!

Regards

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## Richard Buttrey

> I think the choice has been made by the majority of the most valued posters here. They don't answer questions anymore because the mods just woffle around valid criticism.
> 
> A far as I know genuine moderating has not been an issue, deleting threads because you don't like them is. Also, I have objected to misinterpretation of the rules.



Roy,

I hate all this argy bargy I really do.

I am trying to put myself in your position and seeing things from your point of view. Without question you and others were extremely valuable members of the forum. No one but no one would surely say otherwise. And as Admin you were conscientious, diligent fair minded and more.

Obviously I don't know what went on between first Simon and Vai, and then you and Vai. Nor indeed what arrangements you had, or thought you had with him. Suffice to say that something clearly caused a rift. I too would no doubt be miffed, hacked off, annoyed, angry... add your own description. So you either resigned or had your privileges revoked - I can't now remember, or even whether this was ever stated I suspect the former but no matter.

All that is entirely understandable and most of us would feel the same. As you say a lot of the previous mods no longer post here, although I don't think the reason is anything to do with the way the forum is presently managed, as you say. As I recollect it was all to do with the fact that the mods did not like the way their recommendations and advice were ignored. Perfectly understandable, none of us do like it when our views are thought to have been ignored. 

As a mod at the time I have to be honest, but I could never get too exercised at all that. It really didn't upset me too much. I took the view, then and now, that I have no ownership of the business, I'm not a stakeholder (in the Blair sense of the word), or paid employee. I don't have any right to dictate anything to do with the way the forum is arranged, marketed or presented. Sure I have an opportunity to offer views and recommendations, but my main task is to keep good order within the day to day operation of the forum postings. Everything else is peripheral. 

As I see it Vai can arrange things however he wants. It's his business, his source of income and all that flows from that. Not mine. As I've said elsewhere he could limit postings to myopic one armed Lithuanian bus conductors if he really wants. Which would be daft but I guess you get the point. It is really that simple. 

None of that is to say that yours and others views as to what the forum should be weren't equally valid. It's just that clearly Vai thought differently.

As you say many of the previous mods no longer post here regularly if at all. Those that decided they did not like the way the forum was run took the correct decision to resign their moderators role and either unsubscribed completely or remained as normal subscribers.That's a loss to EF. Of course it is. But equally, neither do they continually rake over old coals which sadly seems to be the route you seem to want to take most of the time. That saddens me and I wish it were otherwise.

Please accept these comments as my point of view alone, but I felt it was worth expressing them.

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## Bob Phillips

Thanks Richard. I know that this forum has had a number of problems, many self-inflicted, but I like the forum and certainly intend to continue as an active member. 

Whilst I feel the newsletter was baldy managed, I would prefer that every 'issue' seems is not escalated by some saying they want nothing more to do with EF but cannot leave it alone. 

I have had my say, so I will quit now.

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## Simon Lloyd

> ....I'll offer just one wry comment. 
> Fair dos to members like Roy, Pepe and others for being savvy enough to note that the unsubscribe link in the newsletter contained an apparently odd reference to Joy Motors which they didn't want to click. No doubt for the reason you've given. Well done them. Many people wouldn't I suspect notice. 
> But it's interesting, I'll put it no stronger than that, that those very same people were apparently so equally sure that it was from Excel Forum that they took the trouble to write about it here. 
> 
> Either they really in their hearts knew it was from EF, (the clue being in the very specific user names of prolific monthly posters and post counts. No self respecting spammer would surely take the trouble to work all that out), and are just making mischief, or they genuinely didn't know but in which case why would their first postings here be suggestions of wrong doing rather than straightforward requests for information to enable them to establish the situation? 
> 
> I offer that thought with no comment!
> 
> Regards



Hi Richard, i believe they posted here in their amazement and anger that;
*a)* their email addresses had been transferred to another server as a mailing list which isn't allowed without the consent of the owner of said address ( i could lablour the point of law with implied and implicit consent where given consent in either case does not transfer when moving or providing a mailing list to a third party (the joymotor server is a third party in law))
*b)* all links at the time referred to joymotors
*c)* the unsubscribe link was something they didnt subscribe to and the link again pointed to a joymotor page to unsubscribe.
*d)* a huge newsletter filled with stuff of little or no value to the reader.

None of them (correct me if i'm wrong guys) thought it was from a spammer but more that the way in which it was delivered without consent was spamming.

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## Andy Pope

Perhaps they were more aware of the newsletter than most members due to discussions in the mod forum, at a time when they and myself where privi to it.
The subject of a newsletter was proached and if I recall correctly receive some pretty negative feedback from the mods. Including multiple requests not to be including on any mailing list. These request was ignored.

The newsletter contains multiple references to ExcelForum, which would then be the logical place to complain about it.

This whole debarcle could have been avoided by posting the newsletter as a sticky article or generating a new sub forum specifically for newsletters.
Or by providing a opt-in/out choice via userscp.

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## TMS

I had forgotten where I had seen Roy's complaint about the newsletter ... and obviously didn't look very hard  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Anyway, I opened this thread ...

http://www.excelforum.com/forum-vete...tribution.html

which kind of expresses my views about the newsletter.

TMS

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## Kyle123

Hmmm, unfortunately I don't have permission to access your thread  :Frown:

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## TMS

Posted in the Forum Veterans' forum ...

http://www.excelforum.com/forum-vete...tribution.html

*Newsletter Distribution*

RoyUK complained in a recent post about the EF Newsletter being sent to his personal email as opposed to the email address in his profile.

He was fobbed off, as you might expect.

Well, I just checked which address was used for me. Surprise, surprise, not the email address that is current in my profile but the address I used when I first signed up. I changed that a long time ago when I realised that every moderator and administrator (and goodness knows who else) had visibility of that address and, consequently, my name when I raised an alert for any reason.

So, it is clear that the distribution is not based on current email addresses but an email address stored somewhere on the servers ... and passed on to a third party (used car salesman) somewhere in India.

I'm not a happy bunny and believe this is a complete breach of ethics and trust.

And please don't just say "unsubscribe" ... that's not the point, although I don't want the rubbish newsletter and believe I should have been given the option to opt in or out.

One very p!$$3d off Vet!

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## Richard Buttrey

> So, it is clear that the distribution is not based on current email addresses but an email address stored somewhere on the servers ... and passed on to a third party (used car salesman) somewhere in India.



I don't know, but no doubt I'll be told, but since Joy Motors is presumably another of Vai's businesses, and the two businesses have an agreement to share the same physical equipment when business efficiency needs dictate, is that such a henious crime? As I say I don't know and will stand corrected if there's some legal point here, but I read what Simon (Hello Simon, what brings you here  :Wink:  ) has said about consent being a factor. 

So if Simon is correct, that consent is a factor and the businesses have consented to share, what IS the problem. Doesn't seem to me it's a third party in the sense being used merely to ramp up dissent.

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## TMS

I don't actually give a toss from where the newsletter came, other than I didn't want it, don't want it, and have unsubscribed from it.

My complaint is that an email address other than my current EF forum profile recorded email address has been used ... and passed on without my consent.  And the fact that personal data has been retained and used when it is no longer relevant.  That, I'm guessing, would be subject to Data Protection legislation ... oh, but of course, that probably doesn't apply here does it.

Do you know Richard, distance aside, I have this mental image of you sitting on Vai's knee with his hand up your back, or somewhere, as you trot out this rubbish.  Seems like you've got yourself embroiled in touting the party line and I think you would do well to back off ... it's kind of creepy and it's sickening me.  I'm quite sure that you keep sticking your oar in does nothing but inflame the situation.

Vai's business, Vai's strategy, Vai's forum, Vai's newsletter, Vai's issue(s) ... let Vai defend the things that he has done and is doing.

TMS

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## Richard Buttrey

> I don't actually give a toss from where the newsletter came, other than I didn't want it, don't want it, and have unsubscribed from it.



Well that's all good then.

Since you mentioned it I took the trouble to look up the UK Data Protection Act. Can't speak about any other country but I guess you are referring to the UK. My reading of it is that apart from certain EU provisions it applies to data held in the UK. Clearly if the data is held in India it's not going to apply at all. So yes you are correct. It doesn't apply here.

Even if it did apply the act is concerned with being able to identify someone from that data. It allows the data owner to define the data and requires that they say why they want the data and whether they will be passing it outside the UK. i.e there doesn't appear to be a restriction on where it may be used. The data concerned relates to name, address, medical details or banking details, racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religion, membership of a trade union, health, *** (that was s e x life until nanny forum stepped in!) life, criminal activity. I somehow doubt that EF holds any of this information apart perhaps from  a name and email address.

You can of course think what you like. I owe no allegiance to Vai, and in fact have posted my concerns about various past matters, to the forum mods area where I presume he occasionally lurks. I have never spoken to him nor had any direct communication. I have no idea who he is. I toe no ones party line and will speak as I see. If I see postings that cast aspersions on anyone (and that includes Vai), and I believe those comments to be unreasonable I will make my views known. It applies both ways. So please don't imply I'm in anyone's pocket.

No, what inflames situations are constant references to someone's alleged wrongdoing. There are ways of expressing concerns without things getting personal. I'm frankly baffled sometimes by people, who immediately they see a mistake jump on some sort of conspiracy theory as an explanation of why things have happened. In truth the reason is usually plain straightforward **** (that was c o c k up before auto nanny) up or oversight rather than any malicious or calculated act.

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## royUK

I first of all complained to the admin at EF email address about the newsletter & received a standard reply which I had forgotten about. I still have the email! 





> Thanks for contacting Excel Forum with regards to Newsletter , one of our admin staff will be in touch as soon as possible. Rest assured the we at Excel Forum are committed to enhancing your experience and enjoyment whilst using our forums.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Site admin.



Not unexpectedly that was the one & only reply.

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## Richard Buttrey

> Not unexpectedly that was the one & only reply.



Yes, I agree. It shouldn't have happened - the absence of a further reply that is.

Do you happen to know what was the essence of your original post, and the relevant dates of your post and the one response? 

If you let me know I'll pass it upstairs. It may of course be that you're so hacked off with it that you don't now want a response, but to use the jargon adopted by every public service department I've ever come across this information may be used 'for training purposes' and would be useful.

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## Simon Lloyd

Just to help Richard, TMS and any others this may prove to help clear muddy waters http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisati...onic_mail.aspx

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## Richard Buttrey

Hi Simon,

Whilst that's instructive in the context of the UK, presumably (and as in the case of the DP Act), it has no relevance or jurisdiction for emails originating in India, which is presumably the source of the newsletter complained of. Or do you read it differently?

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## Simon Lloyd

Hi Richard, this'll be my last post on the subject, firstly the emails originated in the USA as thats where the server is hosted and as such falls under US law, they have similar rules/laws...etc on how this whole debacle has been administered...etc most of which contravene fedral law. I'm not going to disect the entire article but there's enough there to help any user understand what rights they do or do not have for them to check how electronic communications for their area being delivered from the USA.

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## TMS

@Richard: I'm going to drop out of this dialogue now.  I've made my point ... or perhaps, expressed my view ... and have no further interest.  You, or someone else, not Vai most likely, will come back and try to calm the troubled waters ... probably not as effectively as you might hope.

@Simon: thanks for the link but it will have no effect on anyone's opinion.

Richard, I'm sure you have a kind heart and wish the best for all involved but, unfortunately, with the medium of the forum and the heightened sensitivities, it just doesn't come across as you would want it.  Just my opinion ... and the last one I will express here, come what may  :Wink: 

TMS

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## royUK

I raely clear out my sent items. It was sent the sa 25 August m day that I received the reply-25 August.





> Why have I received this unsolicited newsletter? It amounts to spam.
> 
> If I receive any more I will report this as spam. I am not about to spend my time unsubscribing from something that I didn’t subscribe to. Please advise the owner(Vai) to get this stopped immediately.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Roy



I later received a second newsletter to my gmail account

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## Richard Buttrey

Thanks Roy,

I have passed it upstairs as promised pointing out that the automated response clearly says you would receive a response.

As soon as I hear anything I'll update you.

Regards

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## Vaibhav

Roy,

I apologize for not responding to you sooner, was stuck with some deliverables.

Well, i admit that there have been certain mistakes on our part while sending out the first newsletter of EF.  I will work with the tech team to get this more streamlined with minimum hassle to my EF users.  I apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you and other esteemed users in EF.

You will not be bugged with any future editions.

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## royUK

Thanks Richard

Vai you really need to listen to the old team, I seem to remember discussing a news letter & none of the former mods thought it was a good idea.

Likewise all this fuss about Mordred being banned, which has now been reversed could have been avoided. If I was admin then I would have contacted Dominic for his reasons and then a quick discussion with the mods in the private forum. It would never have escalated. The only people that were banned previously were spammers & rude (probably kids) people. Many of the regular posters, some now mods, received PM warnings & took notice, they weren't banned.

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## Simon Lloyd

> Roy,
> 
> I apologize for not responding to you sooner, was stuck with some deliverables.
> 
> Well, i admit that there have been certain mistakes on our part while sending out the first newsletter of EF.  I will work with the tech team to get this more streamlined with minimum hassle to my EF users.  I apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you and other esteemed users in EF.
> 
> You will not be bugged with any future editions.



Vai, hats off to you (eventually!) this is pretty much the action you should have taken from the first mention of the problem (as with the other forum issues)....hopefully going forward this will be the stance you take on all issues - say what you'll do and actually do it!, im afraid the "the tech team" are dealing with it has become a black hole that 99% of reported issues go to and are never resolved, go back to how it used to be as in: "here's the issue, here's whats being done, here's when it will be resolved (or say it cannot be resolved and we'll have to live with it)" the unrest here and upset users would all but vanish!

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