# Off Topic > The Water Cooler >  >  When is a rule not a rule?

## gmk

Not knowing if this will be removed.....

I have thoroughly enjoyed contributing to this forum.  It has got high on my daily to do list.  I have both learned a lot and enjoyed the complememts when posters responded with a kindly thanks.  And that's what drives you on to keep assisting.

But what confronts me now is really hard to stomach, is demotivating and is frankly sickening.  In exasperation but most of all sadness I reflect on what happened as I logged on the other night and scanned the list of members online for I could not believe what I saw.  One nickname jumped out.  Now a supposed wrinkly but therefore broadminded too I still cannot equate this forum's rules with what confronted me - affronted me - assaulted my senses both then and now even more so.

After some thought I wrote to 5 mods (my limit in 1 PM) but more than 12 hours later I have not had the courtesy of one reply.  This is unusual.  I cannot believe they don't care so can only conclude they can't do much, if anything.  But what really bothers me is the lack of any response whatsoever.  But we have all experienced what it's like when ops don't respond either - there is a vacuum.  Now the forum mods are educated people and collectively must have huge experience of the public at large, they are not daft, so what gives here?

So continuing this train of thought and knowing I have no up-front support... this lack of re-action perplexes me for it poses a paradox when you read the rules - things which are usually keenly applied  - and rightly so.

The paradox...




> By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
> and...
> Avoid coarse language (meaning any words you didn't hear in Sunday school)....



Of course the mods may well have to reply 'but a nickname is not a message so the first rule cannot be applied'.  But surely in this case the second rule applies and I now ponder which Sunday schools tolerate such language and what is not vulgar with nicknames which doubt parentage and the worst of all, which quote female lower body parts.  Remember these are nicknames, they are there up front for all to see time and again, not some tactless remark hidden in a thread which will disappear into the archives.

It may be these members set out to shock or amuse (oh, how we laughed) which serves only to show imo their lack of sophistication and or intelligence.  Then again they may not have in which case I truly despair for them. 

For goodness sake we are in the midst of a worldwide forum read by people of all ages and faiths where mebership is not necessary to view content.  It is not some closetted seedy site of consenting adults.  Would you like your children to log on and see this stuff?  What would your partner think knowing how long you spend on site?  There can be repercussions for pete's sake!

I have every right to log on to a worldwide public forum expecting to see normal standards of decency upheld.  Should I be made to feel awkward or tense when logging on wondering what I might find?

To repeat the title of my PM to the mods - Decorum on the Forum!  Please!



Sincerely,

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## Kyle123

I must admit when I saw the screenname of the person I believe you're referring to, I too raised an eyebrow

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## Pepe Le Mokko

When ROYUK was admin, such things were not allowed and Roy took the necessary action ( or a mod) to keep things acceptable to all.

Of course, today, there are less mods than before, for reasons everyone is well aware of, and it seems to me that some mods have the tendency to think that moderating is answering OP's question as fast as possible ( which is nice of course) and administrative work ("cleaning"), etc.. comes in second place.

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## romperstomper

I believe that's an admin job. Since the only admins now are Vai and shub, good luck getting anything done. Also I think about half the moderators are regularly here these days so maybe you PMd the wrong ones?

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## Mordred

I want to know about the name in question, what was it?  Also, Pepe Le Mokko had it nailed right in that RoyUK was quick to ban OP with obscene names and we mods at the time followed by his example.  However, the mods of today do as good of a job as possible considering the extra crap they have to moderate like the Introductions forum as an example.  And, if they don't have a good leader (like RoyUK) as admin then they will not moderate to the standard of that good leader.  Who leads now, Arlette?  Sorry Arlette but you do not lead your mods well imo and as far as being a liaison between the forum and the "tech team", you are dropping the ball.  I say this because the same old problems of last December and on are still problems.  I feel bad for the good people that moderate here now.  I mean, it's great that you have the title and I know that I liked it but you have far more responsibilities than mods of the past and you have no real support from the owner and his lackies!  Because of this, regular members may start looking at the moderation here as suspect and useless, like in this thread.  

Don't twist that though, I don't think any of you, except Arlette, are suspect and useless (sorry Arlette but in this free world I live in, I can say exactly how I feel).

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

It's OK, I was pm'd the name in question!

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## gmk

Mordred

The first I saw was a few days back and is perhaps a little lame as far as elders are concerned.  But as you know this is read by all.

It was Old**tyBas***d but the straw which broke etc was C***Ch**er.  But this isn't all about children, I mentioned these issues to my wife and now she will wonder just that odd tenth of one percent what else must be occurring on the site which I spend so much time on.  Overall I have been been pleased to be a member though I do not have the history which may make others more sanguine but why should I now be made to feel embarrassed to frequent a site which condones such bad practice?

Now it is in the public domain I can say more openly this isn't necessarily about mods, this is money and advertising and avoiding explaining to owners why members may have been banned.  Beginning to suspect I would not get support I spoke this afternoon to the American Embassy in London and how if I didn't get anywhere with the owners - whoever they are - would approaching the FBI be the appropriate body to refer this complaint on to.  His response was the FBI would only really be interested if there was any incitement to violence.  So if nothing changes next step owners, then advertisers I guess.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

romperstomper
I explained in my PM the reason I could not mail all of them as was my original intention.  I also, before posting, watched who was on line and made sure they were one of my five.  So as soon as sent they would have read it.  Whether the recipients wanted to get involved or not why didn't they respond out of the courtesy which we all employ?  If it isn't their responsibilty why haven't they passed it up the tree and advised they have done so.  So simple.

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

Pepe Le Mokko
I have seen a mod response to a RoyUK post the last few weeks and wondered why they would use words like 'aggressive lately' etc.  It's easy to grasp the undercurrent but it is also easy to see that he gained so much respect from others.  His withdrawal seems much lamented.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Kyle123
Like I said I'm no prude but it makes me so angry to see this rubbish in such an unexpected way and what is more I feel so de-motivated.

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## romperstomper

I can't comment with any certainty as to why you got no response but would hazard a guess that perhaps they passed the message on and were hoping for swift feedback and/or resolution from the powers that be before they got back to you. (If they were new mods they might still believe that could happen  :Wink: )

Anyway, perhaps this thread will help to draw attention to the issue.

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## gmk

I received this from Arlette at 07.22PM.  Some 2 hours plus after this thread was started.  I have asked that the time of the original reply to me is also shown as it must appear in her sent box.  Maybe it will have an impact afterall but is it after going public or before?





> Hi gmk,
> 
> I thought you had received this PM because i have it in my sent items.  But i saw your thread and so am sending it again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...

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## Paul

Hi Gmk,

My primary thought about this is that you need to be more patient.  Not receiving a response within 12 hours to a PM sent to five people is not unacceptable in my book, seeing as we're all in different time zones and all have many things to accomplish during our daily lives outside of this forum.  Two or more days without a response would be a tad much, of course.

I'm the person who actually added the offensive user name section to Rule #6 of the Forum after being discussed by the Mod team several weeks ago, so it's something we watch for while browsing threads.  We (or at least I) don't search the member list for offensive names, but deal with them as issues arise.  




> 6. Common courtesy is the order of the day. Avoid coarse language (meaning any words you didn't hear in Sunday school), provide feedback to suggested solutions, and take the time to thank those who took their time to help you. If you solve a problem yourself before anyone else has responded, please take a moment to describe your solution -- chances are some other member will benefit. Never edit a thread in which someone else has responded.
> 
> User names that are deemed offensive or in poor taste are subject to being changed or banned pending discussion between the forum leaders and the user in question.



With regard to O*D*B*, we previously made contact with that user prior to your report and were awaiting his/her reply with a new user name, which the admins have now changed.  There are going to be user names and comments that may be in poor taste, and as we come across them we will deal with them individually.  This is the same now as it was when Roy was admin.  (Although now, as Romper pointed out, we just have to report it to the new admins and let them handle the actual change.)

Based on some behind-the-scenes discussions, there's a good chance we'll be going through the member list and deleting/banning/changing some of the blatantly offensive user names in the near future.  We can't just do a mass change, though, else we revisit the Scunthorpe problem.

In the future, I'd also recommend not contacting embassies or branches of law enforcement when something on a public forum offends you.  Have you seen the internet lately?

Have a good day!

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## vlady

i agree with you paul 
btw there are 302,734 and counting divided by mods/admins   --what's the ratio??

two thing
 ---mods are divided into categories.... who's on user names/new members approval? how about checking user name before approving membership, can we do that in vbulletin?

 ---comments are handled by mods on their own categories, isn't it? so no problem with that it's the mod's call.


just my thoughts. :Smilie:

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## Mordred

Good response Paul!  I must say that I chuckled out loud when I saw that gmk reported this to the FBI and whoever else.  Sorry gmk but that is a little silly.  I say that because the interwebs puts out such things like 2 girls 1 cup so a few bad names are to be expected in a forum like this, like it or not.

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## abousetta

I'd be more interested in the official stance of the FBI  :Wink: 

Should Vai be concerned that a task force is being set up to investigate cross-border inappropriate forum screen names  :Confused:

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## gmk

Paul

My rant off, issue remains.





> Not receiving a response within 12 hours to a PM sent to five people is not unacceptable in my book, seeing as we're all in different time zones and all have many things to accomplish during our daily lives outside of this forum.



Of course, but that is why I made sure one of the 5 was online at the time of the PM.  The same mod had responded within minutes earlier in the day when I applauded action on another more common issue.  Again next day there was certainly 1 if not 2 of the 5 online.  All it needed was a 'We're dealing with it' message.  Simple.
Arlette, more than 2 hours after my thread was opened and 20 hours after the PM, says she sent a response but does not show when.  That response was not received.  Either way, technical failure or human failure, nothing was outwardly being done.





> We (or at least I) don't search the member list for offensive names, but deal with them as issues arise.



And in a nutshell therein lies the problem.  The issue arises at the point of registration which I note in this case was 9th July this year.  Tackled at source as vlady suggests would relieve everyone of this whole burden.





> Based on some behind-the-scenes discussions, there's a good chance we'll be going through the member list and deleting/banning/changing some of the blatantly offensive user names in the near future.



And how long has this site been going before it's come to this possible course of action?  Seems like patience isn't so much a virtue as a necessity.





> In the future, I'd also recommend not contacting embassies or branches of law enforcement when something on a public forum offends you.



Faced with potential ridicule and with potential intransigence from mods, owners et al where else would one go to seek information to scope the tools of complaint in another country.  You are perhaps familiar with US procedure.  I am not.  The FBI came up in conversation with the guy, it wasn't my first port of call.  My question was simply how would you go about raising a complaint on an internet issue in the US?

But let's not be diverted by the mechanics of the complaint. The primary issue is prevention and or removal of offensive nicknames and I see the one in question still remains.  But as romperstomper says 'Since the only admins now are Vai and shub, good luck getting anything done.'

.....oh, excuse me, I feel another patient yawn coming on.  :Wink:

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## Mordred

Make sure you have a nap while your waiting gmk, it will probably be a while!

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## zbor

> When ROYUK was admin, such things were not allowed and Roy took the necessary action ( or a mod) to keep things acceptable to all.



In the posts, yes. He defended me and others lot of times. 
But gmk speak about user names, and there is lot of such names joining for years  (from 2007 for example and earlier)... Not all of them appear in last few months.
That's nobody's fault but hopefully it will be taken care now.

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## gmk

@Mordred

Yep and I've got plenty of beers in the fridge too.

To be fair I've had lots of encouraging noises from Arlette's direction.  I'm informed they have found several more.  It's pleasing to see action on the first Old.... but that was apparently in hand as I raised the issue.

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## romperstomper

Don't seem to have actually _done_ anything though. Would have been so easy to just delete the user/change the name as they are located.

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## gmk

@zbor





> Not all of them appear in last few months. That's nobody's fault but hopefully it will be taken care now.



Good.  But if you nip it in the bud, i.e. at registration point then it doesn't have to be big clean up operation taking lots of people's time.  So I guess it's down to the techies - can id's be monitored at the point of registration and if not then manually as soon as possible afterwards.  Perhaps to avoid the Scunthorpe issue referred to earlier you could have at the point of registration 'a please refer to WebMaster if your id fails' message.  Just a thought.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

@romperstomper





> Would have been so easy to just delete the user/change the name as they are located



From the responses I believed it to be admin's job.  Is that not always the case then?

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## martindwilson

its only a name!
i cannot believe anyone is so easily offended

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## gmk

This is crazy I went 'Go Advanced' and got a double post.

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## romperstomper

Yes, it is the admin's job - how hard could it be to delete them as they are located? Of course, (crazy idea alert) life would be simpler if the forum had at least one admin who actually spent time here regularly and knew what they were doing.

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## Mordred

> life would be simpler if the forum had at least one admin who actually spent time here regularly and knew what they were doing.



Ah the good ol days.

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## gmk

Thanks Arlette and team.

That's 2 live ones down but many, maybe passives, way back to 2007 to go.  But it's a start.

Nip it in the bud at registration and it will cease to be an issue.  How?.... get the techies to flag dubious names to admin.  That allows new members immediate access but captures real infringements.  Not enough admin?... refer to owners, they have a simple decision to make, proactive family oriented site v rubbish site.

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## arlu1201

Thanks for your input, gmk. 

We are working on it along with the tech team. Should have a resolution to it shortly.

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## Richard Buttrey

Hi,

As  soon as you  PMd me with the problem I contacted admin

We have been  discussing this and the way forward on the  mods forum since, and I understand the tech team are now in the process of  removing  not only these names but also the many  hundreds of names with zero posts.  So  your PM was not ignored.

If I erred it was in not replying immediately to you. I was waiting for more concrete information (which you now have) before doing so.

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## gmk

> Hi,
> 
> As  soon as you  PMd me with the problem I contacted admin
> 
> We have been  discussing this and the way forward on the  mods forum since, and I understand the tech team are now in the process of  removing  not only these names but also the many  hundreds of names with zero posts.  So  your PM was not ignored.
> 
> If I erred it was in not replying immediately to you. I was waiting for more concrete information (which you now have) before doing so.



Thanks for being open.  And it sounds as if there is real intent and purpose.

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## Kyle123

If old zero post accounts are being deleted can I bagsie one of the account names? I'd prefer to be just kyle but this was already taken by someone who joined in 05 hasn't logged in since and hasn't posted

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## gmk

> ...bagsie...



Not heard that in years.  Takes me back to penny sherbets and the Hotspur!  :Smilie:

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## Marcol

Hmm?

And just how many languages should the mods have to know?
Are Scheißer, Merdeux, Gaandu, etc ...  acceptable, I fear not.

This link might help some new members with their perverse sense of humour, and mods/admin police them.
How to Choose or Recognise an Offensive Handle

*P.S.*
"Basic FTP Commands" could be read as the title of a handbook for offending Catholics, and might be well sought after in certain parts of Glasgow ...  :EEK!:

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## martindwilson

i think they are often funny and should be allowed wet blankets the lot of you ,daily mail reading  Mary white house descendants

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## JapanDave

> Thanks for your input, gmk. 
> 
> We are working on it along with the tech team. Should have a resolution to it shortly.



Why is that your standard reply for everything?

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## arlu1201

Dave,

I am working in liaison with the tech team, so til they action it, i cannot do anything from my side.

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## TMS

Can I have dibs on TMS please?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Mordred

> Why is that your standard reply for everything?



It's a standard response that means "we'll look at this issue eventually".

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## Richard Buttrey

> Not heard that in years.  Takes me back to penny sherbets and the Hotspur!



... and don't forget Wilson of the Wizard  and The  Rovers  comic Alf Tupper the 'tough of the track' - who worked in the welding shop by day, had  a fish and  chips tea on the way to the  athletic meeting in the  evening and lapped the toffs of  the Greystone Harriers opposition in a 440 yard race. (I made the last bit up).  :Wink: 

Apposite  thread  given the need for an Alf Tupper in British athletics in London in the days to come  :Smilie: 

...sorry.... this  thread is drifting.

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## martindwilson

> and don't forget Wilson



that's my dad

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## gmk

> given the need for an Alf Tupper in British athletics in London in the days to come



We need Roy of the Rovers too.  He would have beaten Senegal on his own the other night!  :Smilie:

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## royUK

*There's a simple way round this.* Anyone using such names is not being funny , clever or sophisticated but downright childish & offensive. 

*BAN THEM*, which any mod can do immediately. GMK took the time to report this name, I've never experienced a PM sticking in th Sent items (another one for the Tech Team to sort out), but instead of replying she should have banned the user & then PM'd a reply saying that the user was no more!

Arlette seems to act as team leader for the mods  having Vai's ear at least & should get this done. There's no problem with names that are not used from years back, they would only be found if someone searched for them, so stop making excuses and creating work and get on with moderating if that is what you mods accepted the title for, if it's just ego then resign. I still see mods answering questions that should have been moderated.

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## arlu1201

> When ROYUK was admin, such things were not allowed and Roy took the necessary action ( or a mod) to keep things acceptable to all.



Andre,

Are you 100% sure about this?  Right now, i can provide you a list of about 400 user ids dating back to 2007 which are obscene and unacceptable in a clean forum like this, which we mods are going to be banning and getting them deleted from the system within the next few days.

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## abousetta

Am I the only one that thinks this going a bit overboard. There are 300,00+ usernames and several million posts on the forum. If someone picks a problem then report it and take it from there, but to go through each and every name and make sure it doesn't offend anyone is really a waste of time. Has the tech team finished fixing all the other issues on the forum? Obviously not since I still see double and triple postings? Have the moderators reviewed all the posts, again the answer is clear. So to summarize, can we get our priorities straight. Just because there is one or two 'questionable' screen names doesn't mean everything else stops until we do a cavity search of every member on the forum.

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## daddylonglegs

> Am I the only one that thinks this going a bit overboard.



No..........

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## Cutter

> Am I the only one that thinks this going a bit overboard..



No, you're not alone, abousetta.

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## arlu1201

Only 1 or 2 names were brought to our notice but there have been loads of names in the system all along which didnt get banned.

But the moderators can get back to moderating the forum since the tech team will be banning and deleting the bad names from the backend directly.  We do not have to spend our time on that activity and can prioritize our work.

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## abousetta

> the tech team will be banning and deleting the bad names from the backend directly



So the tech team will not be working on the other more important activities like keeping the forum running, but rather sifting through 300,000 names to see if they are offensive or not. So next time the server is down, I will understand because I am sure the tech team was doing something more important like cleansing the system of username of individuals who have never posted on the forum. I can sleep much better at night now.

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## arlu1201

Abousetta,

They do not need to go thru all the user ids. The list has already been provided to them.  Its just a matter of an hour or so to complete the task.

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## abousetta

what about in the future. If I created a new username with an obscene meaning... who is going to catch it and block me. Is the tech team now responsible for screening new names, or the mods or who. If someone picks it up then they should report it and take up the issue from there, but to expect that every name will be screened it a real waste of time that should be spent on other more important problems with the forum.

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## royUK

> Andre,
> 
> Are you 100% sure about this?  Right now, i can provide you a list of about 400 user ids dating back to 2007 which are obscene and unacceptable in a clean forum like this, which we mods are going to be banning and getting them deleted from the system within the next few days.



I'd like to see the list. No regular posters that i saw or were reported when I was admin were ignored. I know which admin team would get points for stretching the truth & it's not the old one.

This forum would not be where it is today but for the former mods, certainly not the efforts of tech team & Arlette

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## Domski

This has just brightened my Monday no end.

English Gent - "Hi is that the FBI?"

FBI Agent - "Yessiree, how can I help you sir."

English Gent - "I've just found a naughty word on the internet!"

FBI Agent - "Rest assured I will take the internet down immediately and Berners Lee with be scheduled for extreme rendition to somewhere really horrible. Probably Scunthorpe!"

PMSL

Dom  :Smilie:

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## FDibbins

for what its worth, i just noticed another 1 (not that it offends me, just fyi) that would possibly fall into the category of this discussion, the mods can pm me for the name, but it ends in sh&ts lol

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## day92

Is it just me or does anyone else think we are getting way too worked up over a name.

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## royUK

> Is it just me or does anyone else think we are getting way too worked up over a name.




No, what is wrong is the ridiculous suggestion to search for for all such names & delete them. If they are that old no-one will find them without looking & being there prevents anyone else using them. New ones seen or reported should be banned

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## arlu1201

Yes, thats what the mods are going to do.  The list that i consolidated (405 obscene names) have already been banned and deleted from the system.  Any new ones can be reported in and we will take care of them.

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## TMS

@Roy: what you said makes sense.  Is there any way that new naughty names can be banned and HIDDEN, somehow? Then the original user couldn't use it, no-one else could see it and no-one else could use it?

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## martindwilson

is there a list of "naughty" names ? i could do with a laugh

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## TMS

Maybe:

http://dirtysounding.com/

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## martindwilson

ah that's Barts list for Moe's excellent!
mind you
Ricardo Cabeza isn't an unlikely real name

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## Russell Dawson

FWIW

http://www.excelforum.com/excel-prog...34#post2851534

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## Mordred

Sorry for my ignorance Russel Dawson but what does that link have to do with bad names?  Is it because he goes by the name OlDirtyBastard on Ozgrid?  Can I say Ozgrid here?

---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ----------





> is there a list of "naughty" names ? i could do with a laugh



Me too!  It's always nice to have a good laugh once in a while!

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## Russell Dawson

Mordred - I should have explained.

This was a thread that was in the original potentially offensive name and has been changed subsequently.  

Just wondered why the mod failed to notice/act at the time.

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## arlu1201

> Just wondered why the mod failed to notice/act at the time.



The mod *was* the one acting on it at the time.  The change request was going on at the same time the thread was proceeding further.  See post 7 of that thread.

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## martindwilson

there are no offensive names just small minds

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## Russell Dawson

That was the OP speaking and I was not prepared to take their word for it.  In the reply by you a few minutes later you don't mention it so I came to the obvious conclusion.

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## JosephP

> there are no offensive names just small minds




the small minds belong to those creating the offensive names

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## martindwilson

my mistake ,i meant narrow minded

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## royUK

> Yes, thats what the mods are going to do.  The list that i consolidated (405 obscene names) have already been banned and deleted from the system.  Any new ones can be reported in and we will take care of them.




So you are saying that the tech team have spent time that could be used to improve the problems that are still be reporting to hunt down old "obscene" names. I don't know what's most amazing - they actually succeeded or that someone considered that job as top priority.

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## Simon Lloyd

> Yes, thats what the mods are going to do.  The list that i consolidated (405 obscene names) have already been banned and deleted from the system.  Any new ones can be reported in and we will take care of them.



The mods shouldn't need to do it, besides, all you'd need to do is create a mysql query to loop through an array of offensive words using the LIKE operand and either delete all those users (by query) or move them to the banned group (by query) there's enough for mods to do without having to do this, the tech team could take care of this in 5 minutes!





> @Roy: what you said makes sense.  Is there any way that new naughty names can be banned and HIDDEN, somehow? Then the original user couldn't use it, no-one else could see it and no-one else could use it?



TMS, you can  easily make a usergroup invisible in vbulletin and even easier, you can just set vbulletins settings correctly to prevent use of certain names, all the tech team need do is compile a list and put it in the proper place in the settings!

Easy fix and no work for anyone  :Wink:

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## arlu1201

They did take about 5 mins to do the work.  The mods didnt have to do anything as it was entirely taken care of by the tech team.  I dont have details of what steps they took but they did do it fast.

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## JBeaucaire

Just because I like to pipe into the opposing viewpoint here and there, I'd say everyone likes to slip in some "quick wins" here and there.

As a project manager dealing with TODO lists that never end and mostly filled with things that just _take time_... I will allow a simple, low priority item to slip to the top of the list because it feels good sometimes to start and finish something...

...then back to the long projects and jeers from the crowd.

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## romperstomper

it's the two minute rule

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