# Off Topic > The Water Cooler >  >  self confessed Excel expert

## tony h

Now this may be an English thing but (a few years ago) when I was hiring Excel programmers whenever an agent said their candidate was an Excel Expert I knew I was going to be disappointed. So I came to the following conclusion:

A self-confessed Excel Expert is someone who doesn't appreciate how much more there is to learn.

But then that leaves the question : how do you describe your level of expertise

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## DonkeyOte

Aaron Blood has provided a decent scale I'd say:  





> NOVICE
> 
> Can successfully navigate and save an Excel workbook.  
> OK with Data Entry tasks.  
> If you think the cartoon paperclip is cute and useful, chances are, you fall into this category.
> 
> Novice Formulas:
> SUM, AVERAGE, COUNT, ROUND
> 
> ...

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## tony h

A good answer but not for the programmer.

No mention of:
- error handling, 
- modules
- name conventions
- class modules
- database connections
- date handling
- extensibility
- etc

On that particular job (around 600 spreadsheets) we never had a pivot table, a sort or filter

Personally I consider that I can do pretty much anything in VBA, and have been paid pretty well for that, but avoid most user functionality.

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## Paul

Being a good programmer doesn't mean your an Excel Expert.  And if you're only a good programmer in VBA, you're not really a good programmer.

:: running for the hills ::

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## tony h

I know what you mean. It is certainly rare to find quality code from someone who only codes in VBA. But quality code is fairly rare anyway.

I thought this subject would have generated a bit more discussion but maybe I am on my own here  :Smilie:

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## DonkeyOte

> I thought this subject would have generated a bit more discussion but maybe I am on my own here



To me at least the purpose of the post isn't really clear.

Either 

a) you want people to come out and state how good / bad they think they are at programming within the confines of VBA ... which is as you say a subjective assessment

or 

b) the intention is for this to become sort of mutual back slapping exercise ?

If you yourself have standards by which you judge others' programming abilities then I would say it would make sense to share them as a starting point.
(I'd pretty much _guarantee_ that _would_ generate a discussion)

FWIW I agree with Aaron Blood's sentiments that there are perhaps a handful of people who have the knowledge to judge others' overall capabilities be it code / native functionality:





> If you are one, you know who you are.
> If you're an Expert, you probably know their names.

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## Domski

I just think a lot of people have little or no idea about what is possible with Excel so rate themselves as an expert all too easily.

I started teaching myself quite a few years ago but never having had a pc at home and not being familiar with the information that was obviously available through the internet in the newsgroups/forums etc I muddled along for years stumbling across functions and working out ways I could use them.

Even back then pretty much everyone in the office I worked in thought I was the Excel 'expert'. Since then I've been plugging on learning bits and bobs and am a lot more aware of the real power of Excel although I have to admit being aware that it can do something and having the skills to do it are a different thing.

If I was going for a job I would blag it and say that I was an expert hoping that the knowledge that I have is more than anyone who would be likely to be asking the questions although using Aaron's scale I think I probably sit more between the Advanced and Expert level.

I guess I'll find out one of the days, been in this job long enough now.

Dom

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## Domski

> FWIW I would say there are perhaps a handful of people who have the knowledge to judge others' overall capabilities be it code / native functionality - and to be clear I'm certainly not one of them.



Okay, I was wrong. If that's the case I just about scrape into intermediate.

I'll slap your back for you a bit fella if you won't!!!

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## DonkeyOte

Let the mutual back slapping commence  :Wink: 

First off let me apologise for amending my prior post whilst you were replying Dom - it looks out of place now.... I stand by your quote of mine though.

In reality I'm not so humble as to say I don't know what I'm doing... 

I'd certainly put myself at the top end of Advanced and lower end of Expert in VBA stakes and mid table in the Expert stakes when it comes to Worksheet Functions etc but the reality is I'm a Guru in neither - few are in either / or and I guess that's the point I was trying to make.  
_(ie I've judged myself whilst accepting I don't really know enough to know do that ... I can only judge myself against my peers)_

For me, it is really only the Gurus who are in a position to judge the rest of us.
I remain convinced that the majority of us spend our time coding away blissfully unaware of what _really_ good code etc looks like.

I don't want to detract from tony h's initial post though - it's an interesting one - I would say VBA is much harder to quantify in qualitative terms than function knowledge.  

On that basis I for one would be very interested to see if people employed certain guidelines in judging other peoples' code.

People have very different approaches - eg jindon to everyone else... (though MickG I think has a similar style thesedays) ... and being different doesn't nec. make it better or worse.

_P.S. Dom, if you think you're Intermediate it would seem we must be having a competition to see who can understate their ability the most ..._

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## tony h

Hi,
I must say the question has a very practical intent. But I have no practical idea of what the answer should be.

When reviewing CVs how do you determine which one to look at (unless they come with a recommendation from a trustworthy source?. How does someone reviewing a CV determine that this person is technically capable? What skills does an agency need to be able to select/promote candidates?  How does a company know what to look for in hiring someone (especially if the hirer does not have technical competancies)?

At interview I find it easyish to hire. As I can ask questions and look for answers that demonstrate technical competance.

I remember one interviewee turning up with a good reference. I always started the interview with some very simple questions just to get the thing moving, and approach to the questions was as important as knowing an answer. My first question "how do you add up a column of numbers" Answer: "oh I should know how to do that". Second question: "How do you put a comment in a VBA macro?" Answer "I am sure I know how to do that". Interview terminated.

I never knew how he managed to be described as an Expert and get a recommendation. About a year later I met someone from his previous employers so I asked about him. "we miss him a lot, he looked after all our spreadsheets" "doing what?" "He entered all the data, and managed the code"

This was the only bad CV sent by this agency.

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## bluerog

Post doesn't contribute to conversation.

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## ChemistB

As per tony h's story of the "expert applicant", I guess it comes down to what you are working with and what everyone else knows.  If your job requires you to do sums and averages and maybe work with timesheets and you can do that better than anyone else in your company, you are an expert working with Excel.  Can we work with a bell shaped curve, top 1% are guru's, top 5 are experts, etc.  Then your position is determined by your peers.  I'm pretty good with what I work with regularly and am learning more every day from you guys.  I know next to nothing about financial functions because I never work with them.  I guess I could tell a potential employer that I am confident in my ability to learn them quickly should they decide to hire me.  

When I'm hiring someone and I want them to be able to develop spreadsheets for me, I want someone with experience who has a definite aptitude for learning more and who knows where to look for answers when they are stuck.

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## broro183

Nice thread  :Smilie: 
It's a good question & one I've had to/tried to answer in interviews myself.
(Tony H - I hope your handle isn't a pseudonym for a recent interviewer of mine!  :Wink: )

As a smart guy once said "everything is relative" (eg depends on "what everyone else knows") & I agree with ChemistB's approach - I tell employers I'm confident of being able to learn & that I know where to find answers.

I like Aaron's scale & I do rate myself slightly higher now than I did the last time I saw it but as "me" (& perhaps as a Kiwi) I may still be more likely to undersell myself. for example, I always state my signature quote when talking about my Excel knowledge even if it is irrelevant given the context of who I'm speaking to. Since my first year or so as a Finance Graduate, I've never been lucky enough to "work" with more excel-knowledgeable people which is why I spend time here - to keep learning from others.

Since seeing Aaron's scale a while ago, I've felt bad about having the "Guru" title/status bestowed on me in this Forum (based on post count?) because my skills are so out of kilter with Aaron's definition. Both Pike & I have mentioned this in a separate thread and I think an overhaul of titles could tie in with the "posting ratio" discussion that CC (?) may have started.

On the flip side, as an interviewee when I was asked about my Excel knowledge I said "I am comfortable in Excel & working with VBA. If I don't know how to do something I know how/where to find the answer.". This prompted the interviewer to be a little more probing, "Are you comfortable with advanced formula such as vlookups/sumifs, and can you write macros as well as VBA?". I choked back a chuckle at the mention of vlookups (as "advanced") & then as the question was finished I realised just how non-technical the interviewer was!
With this realisation, I kept my response brief again & explained that I personally use the terms macro & VBA "pretty much interchangeably". I could have talked for ages (refer to above!  :Wink: ) but I think the interviewer's eyes would have glazed over quite quickly.


What I find so awesome about Excel & what makes it so hard to "pigeon hole" people, is the sheer variety & scale of Excel's capabilities. Heaps of tests have a go at pigeonholing (eg http://www.ms-iq.com/TestIndex.aspx?id=1 or others) but they are usually general tests. I think it's likely specific jobs will require not just knowledge of specific Excel capabilities but the ability to actually apply the capability to the issue at hand, be it Inventory/Finance/Stat's/Chem/Eng...

LOL, Paul, how's your hill running going?
I only "know" VBA & it's through on going self-guided discovery & after reading a version of "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell (+ other books) I can see I have a long way to go before I can consider myself more than a fledging defensive programmer. I try to share the concepts I've learnt in my posts on this forum so it saddens me to read "that quality code is fairly rare". However, I can believe it as I've asked Programmers why a report doesn't provide the same results when it is run twice & I've been told after they investigated that "it's the way the report list is built. Back out of the screens & then go back in to re-run the report". There wasn't even a hint of "ooopps, perhaps this could be corrected"!
- perhaps I'm being naive but it certainly wasn't what I expected to hear as a final outcome.

Well I better stop here or risk a full on vent & we have enough emotion here at the moment  :Wink: 

Rob

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## martindwilson

i have no idea what anyone is talking about!
save to say  Microsoft office is a box of tools, don't restrict yourself to excel.
you wouldn't after all grind down a spoon to make a knife ,it's a waste of effort,just use a knife!
 word is a text processor excel isn't. many things we do in excel can be done easier in  word or even in an advanced notepad!. 
as for vba dont forget basic batch files.
we often go out of our way to parse text or write vba that can be easily done with another app.
it's fun and challeging tho'

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## JBeaucaire

I'd be more comfortable assessing my own cooking skills than Excel expertise level.  Anyone want a good chili recipe?   :Wink:

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## shg

> you wouldn't after all grind down a spoon to make a knife ,it's a waste of effort,just use a knife!



I'm going to to clean that up and adopt it as my own, starting in http://www.excelforum.com/excel-prog...zone-wise.html

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## Domski

> Anyone want a good chili recipe?



On what scale is that considered to be good ;-)

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## JBeaucaire

Good enough to win two local Chili - cookoffs... but then again, most of the entries were really bad... I'll say "good enough", then. :Cool:

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## romperstomper

> But then that leaves the question : how do you describe your level of expertise



Getting better.  :Smilie:

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## ChemistB

> But then that leaves the question : how do you describe your level of expertise



At work, I consider myself the resident expert (always with a qualification that I have much to learn), on these boards, I consider myself a novice. 

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes". Walt Whitman

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## DonkeyOte

> Getting better.



on that basis it's safe to say we're _all_ in trouble...

I agree with the point that you can only judge yourself against those around you.  Learn from whomever you can, they are invariably doing likewise and as such over time "everyone's a winner".

In terms of vetting based on a CV - unless the applicant is any one (or more) of:

a) published
b) listed here 
or
c) personally referred by those whose judgement you trust 

I don't think you can expect to weed out the good from the bad based on a CV alone.  

If coding ability is fundamental to the role (the "top trump" or close to it) it would perhaps make most sense to conduct a competency test prior to any face to face interview process.  
_It is obviously imperative that any such test adequately reflects the actual standards required._

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## romperstomper

You can't trust that list - have you seen some of the people they've let in recently?  :Wink:

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## martindwilson

it all depends on size of fish in pond !  :Cool:

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