# Off Topic > Suggestions for Improvement >  >  Moderation by Non-Moderators

## AliGW

OK, so this morning, having jumped into a thread with no replies, I posted a response that, in the event, solved the OP's issue. Whilst I was posting, a 'valued forum contributor' took it upon himself to throw the rule book at the OP for not providing a suitable thread title (not an unusual occurrence here, and sometimes quite justified). My own post was submitted before I saw his post, and is time-stamped as one minute later than his. Seconds later he PMd me, telling me to remove my post until the OP had complied with his request. Assuming that he was a forum moderator, I returned to the thread to comply with his request (although I thought it a bit extreme, I have to say), only to find that I had solved the issue for the OP (who was kind enough to reward my efforts with some rep). 

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that this 'valued forum contributor', who took it upon himself to police the thread and my contribution to it, is not a moderator at all! Surely, if he had a beef with the OP's thread title, he should have reported the post and left it up to a moderator to deal with? How many other forum contributors are taking it upon themselves to do what I perceive as a moderator's job? The overall impression is of rather over-zealous (sorry to use these words, but no, Fotis, they are not impolite) moderation, but it could well be that non-moderators are responsible for creating this impression rather than the moderators themselves. If this is the case, then the situation needs taking in hand.

I am a member of several fora, and none is policed in such a heavy-handed fashion as these boards. It's a shame, because the quality of answers provided here is generally exceptional. I'm just making an observation here, and do not wish to stir up a hornets' nest, but am I really the only person who thinks that the behaviour I experienced today is a bit extreme? I'd love to know your thoughts.

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## Fotis1991

Just three corrections ... basically because  my name was mentioned.





> ..(sorry to use these words, but no,* Fotis,* they are not impolite)



1) We are talking about this thread.

http://www.excelforum.com/excel-form...52-sumifs.html

2)  My comment there was about this(your own) phrase. 



> .... Moderation is *ridiculously*



3) Our member that you are talking is not a VFC, but a Forum Guru.

Also pls anyone notice that i was the one that suggested to *AliGW*, either to contact with the Admins, or to start a thread here.

Also i'd like to mention that Forum Gurus, have access to the same Canned replies as we(mods) have and  there is no rule that don't allow them to post these replies.

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## XOR LX

Ali,

I sympathise with some of your comments, especially the sometimes "over-zealous" approach to moderating (still seeing that permanent 'scar' every time I go into my User CP!)

I guess the Guru status sits (perhaps uncomfortably) somewhere between that of Moderator and Contributor, and for that reason perhaps can't be so easy to interpret for those who hold the title (something like the newly-promoted boss who attempts to juggle that new status with trying to still be "one of the team"?). See the following extract from the Guru guidelines:

_3.As a guru you are expected to follow all publicized forum rules, and enforce those rules within the threads you participate._

http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...n-ef-guru.html

Regards

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## AliGW

> I guess the Guru status sits (perhaps uncomfortably) somewhere between that of Moderator and Contributor, and for that reason perhaps can't be so easy to interpret for those who hold the title (something like the newly-promoted boss who attempts to juggle that new status with trying to still be "one of the team"?). See the following extract from the Guru guidelines:
> 
> _3.As a guru you are expected to follow all publicized forum rules, and enforce those rules within the threads you participate._
> 
> http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...n-ef-guru.html
> 
> Regards



Thanks for your comments. I can understand the bit about enforcing rules, but this morning, the 'guru' in question overstepped the mark, as far as I am concerned. People come here to give help and seek help, not to be chastised for breaking rules - crikey, in my job, I'd be hauled over the coals for reacting in such a fashion! I'm a secondary school teacher, by the way, so I know a thing or two about how and when to lay down the law ... ;-)

Oh, well - I suppose we'll just have to put up with it. As I said before, it's a great shame, because rules can be enforced in a much more friendly and helpful way than is often the case here. Thanks again for your observations!  :Smilie:

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## XOR LX

"_I'm a secondary school teacher_"

And you still find some free time to come on this forum?!? Respect to you!

(Taught FE and Sixth-Form for a couple of years myself - found that hard enough, never mind Secondary!  :Smilie: )

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## AliGW

> Also i'd like to mention that Forum Gurus, have access to the same Canned replies as we(mods) have and  there is no rule that don't allow them to post these replies.



It's a shame there isn't a rule about* unnecessary harassment of forum members via PM*. ;-)

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## AliGW

> "_I'm a secondary school teacher_"
> 
> And you still find some free time to come on this forum?!? Respect to you!
> 
> (Taught FE and Sixth-Form for a couple of years myself - found that hard enough, never mind Secondary! )



I do because I use spread sheets a lot in my job (as a Head of Department). Pupil progress tracking is a big thing, so I often look here for hints and tips to improve the efficiency of my formulae. Working on one now, as it happens! :-D

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## Fotis1991

> It's a shame there isn't a rule about* unnecessary harassment of forum members via PM*. ;-)



Not really......





> 4. Don't Private Message or email *Excel questions* to moderators or other members. (or Word, Access, etc.) The point of having a public forum is to share solutions to common (and sometimes uncommon) problems with all members.



And apologize...as trying to click on "reply with quote" button in previous post, i clicked the "edit post", ..button...

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## AliGW

> And apologize...as trying to click on "reply with quote" button in previous post, i clicked the "edit post", ..button...



You naughty little moderator! Tut, tut ... It's really not democratic to alter the emphasis of somebody else's words, is it??? ;-)

Anyway, enough now. I've made my point, and so have you. As I said, we'll just have to put up with the way it is.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Fotis1991

OK. As i see an unexplained aggression (to me) just remind you that in no case I did not attacked to you. Not even disagreed with you and  as I  don't fashioned rules or ways of using these rules, i have nothing more to add to this issue.

Thanks for your "kind" comments and your lessons about Democracy which(lessons) actually  i don't need.

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## ragulduy

I think a reduction in the "confrontational" style of moderating would be welcome.

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## Mad-Mizer

I'm confused, are Guru's like little moderators or what would you call them, underlings?  Does Guru status enable one to be the law here?  How does one become a guru law enforcer here?  Do I *have* to abide by what a guru tells me to do here?   In other forums that I've used, there are moderators and administrators that are the forum law and everyone else helps and that's it.   Judging by this thread, that is not the case here which is confusing.

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## zbor

_if your post does not comply with Rule xxx of our Forum_ ... Please do not ignore requests by Administrators, Moderators and senior forum members regarding forum rules.

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## Mad-Mizer

Hi zbor, at what point do you become a senior member where you can enforce laws?  This is all very confusing to me.  Your blanket statement doesn't really tell me much does it?

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## martindwilson

when you have a tad more that 55 posts?

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## Mad-Mizer

Hi martindwilson, I wasn't asking because I thought I should be a senior member here, I was asking because I was wondering.  Two responses from two different members now make me feel like I'm not worthy of an answer because I don't have 17,000 + posts.  

Not very inspiring, all I'm doing is asking questions.

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## martindwilson

the reason i said that is because no one seems to know exactly,but it seems to be assumed that after several years you should know the rules and abide by them ,i got loads of infractions when i first started
eg
Latest Infractions Received (0 point(s) total)
03-18-2009 12:41 PM
NBVC
Expired: Private
Ignoring Moderators Requests

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## AndyLitch

Talking of rules and regulations - I was in the army so ANY "Apparant" lack of conformity led to the humiliation of jail.. It made school look like a playground LOL

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## Mad-Mizer

Thank you martindwilson, knowing that it is unknown is better than not knowing at all......I think. :Confused:

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## Andy Pope

See "Different Levels" section on this page.
http://www.excelforum.com/faq.php

Forum guru info
http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...n-ef-guru.html

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## martindwilson

oh there is this
This is the current level structure being followed - 
- Registered User: New users
- Forum Contributor: 60 days and 100 posts
- Valued Forum Contributor : 120 days registered and 300 posts and 150 reputation points
- Forum Expert: 360 days registered, 1200 posts and 600 reputation points
- Forum Guru: Promoted by voting from Forum Expert level
- Forum Moderator: Promoted from Forum Guru or Forum Expert level
- Forum Administrator: Promoted from Forum Moderator level
so i suppose everyone in blue would be expected to follow the rules .....

however we do have access to canned replies and its sometimes easier to just click it

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## AliGW

> OK. As i see an unexplained aggression (to me) just remind you that in no case I did not attacked to you. Not even disagreed with you and  as I  don't fashioned rules or ways of using these rules, i have nothing more to add to this issue.
> 
> Thanks for your "kind" comments and your lessons about Democracy which(lessons) actually  i don't need.



 :EEK!:  Oh, dear, oh, dear ... I was trying to lighten the mood!!! I have not in any way been aggressive towards you, just pulled your leg, and you did edit my post. Again, I am very sorry that you find all this so upsetting.

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## Mad-Mizer

So reputation points matter quite a bit here?  It's a good thing I "fell in line" like many others and put that in my signature, it looks like I'm going to need them.

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## zbor

> So reputation points matter quite a bit here?  It's a good thing I "fell in line" like many others and put that in my signature, it looks like I'm going to need them.



It's more important to provide quality answers. That's best way for collecting CP  :Smilie: 
They will come by the time.

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## AliGW

Reputation points are a bone of contention wherever they are used. Forums that do not use them do not seem to lack quality answers. Forums that do use them contain many threads discussing them!!! :-D

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## adyteo

Martin, the number of posts does not say a lot. I can start posting 100 of posts per day without saying anything to help anyone. And, in the same time, to abide the rules of the forum.

just my 2 cents.

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## Mad-Mizer

@adyteo, I guess it can't be perfect!

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## TMS

A lot of people have made a lot of comments, most if not all valid taken in context.

This forum is more heavily policed than others I am a member of (lots although nothing like as active) but, that said, it is has a lot more gentle touch than it once did.  Everyone is expected to comply with the rules of the forum both in terms of asking question that are compliant (in oh so many ways) and answering them.

I don't think it is stated anywhere what constitutes a "senior member" although the different "grades" of contributor are listed.  Some will feel the urge to police the forum sooner than others.  Me, I'm here to answer questions and I'm not good at policing the forum either formally or informally ... hence no longer a moderator.

I tend to answer questions if I can and, if and when I remember, comment on any broken rule(s) and ask the OP to comply.  Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.  Whatever, I'm happier taking a softer approach in the hope that the OP will learn, will comply with the rules but, most importantly, leave the OP feeling it was a pleasant and helpful experience.

But, people are people and some try harder than others to follow the rules and police them. And we all make mistakes.

And, I think the last point I want to make is that statements made in threads can easily be misunderstood and/or mis-interpreted often with over-reaction and escalation.  Sometimes it is necessary to take a deep breath, count to ten, and just let it go.  And I know from personal experience that isn't always easy.

So, how to finish off?  Good point, well made and an interesting discussion.  But maybe we all need to draw a line and move on.

Regards, TMS

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## Fotis1991

> Martin, the number of posts does not say a lot. I can start posting 100 of posts per day without saying anything to help anyone. And, in the same time, to abide the rules of the forum.
> 
> just my 2 cents.



It's almost impossible to do this as posts in "Water cooler", "Suggestions for improovment" etc...sub forums don't count as posts.

Also if you post to threads without to try to give a help(just for posting), soon or later a moderator will contact with you asking for you to stop doing this! :Smilie:

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## zbor

Well, you can just keep asking to clarify question in active forum  :Smilie: 
That will build up your posts and you can't deny contribution  :Smilie:

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## AndyLitch

I think you need to revise your ranking system... Surely anyone who has read the forum rules has the right to politely advise others on forum etiquette and control ?

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## TMS

> anyone who has read the forum rules has the right to politely advise others on forum etiquette and control ?



Absolutely.  But this is where interpretation of the "message" (regarding senior members) muddies the water.

My point 



> Everyone is expected to comply with the rules of the forum both in terms of asking question that are compliant (in oh so many ways) and answering them.



 should perhaps be extended to include that point ... everyone can and should help to police the forum ... but not everyone wants to, or will.

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## AndyLitch

I think it's a natural human tendency not to police an environment they're unsure of ... It's a help forum - so we help each other... including posting etiquette.
AND that frees up the Guru's etc to concentrate on solutions

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## FDibbins

Trevor, as always, makes very valid points, as do all of you.

From time to time, members make suggestions regarding improvements/suggestions on how the forum can me improved.  As with just about everything, some will agree with those suggestions. while others will not.  Currently this is no clear definition of what constitutes a "senior" members, and I will raise that with the mods and admin to see if we can address that short-coming (so despite anything else on this thread Ali, thank you for raising it)

As mods, we have previously discussed over-zealous members, both "senior" and "non-senior" (not that I am saying that Six falls into this category, quite the opposite), and have, on occasion, sent a PM regarding this to that member.  

1 thing we all have to keep in mind though, is that different people read/interpret the same thing in different ways, as well as react in different ways to the same thing - we have members from all around the world, and sometimes language barriers can get thrown into the mix as well.  Had I seem that thread, I would also have asked for a title change, and I think that Six's PM was more of a "heads-up" in case the post in channel was over looked (as well as the timing issue which happens all the time) - more of a positive nudge than a negative slap.  I tend to read titles from the point of view of what would google (or any search engine) produce from the wording.

As long as something positive comes from this, then all's good, right?   :Smilie:

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## martindwilson

****************WARNING*******************
You have started a sentence with “Trevor”
This is in direct conflict with rule  116.a.32
Which clearly states..
No posts should include any name that is not a forum user name.
For example Frank where it should be Fdibbins
This post will be locked and unless you contact a Forum Expert- Forum Guru- Forum Moderator
- Forum Administrator 
within 16.5 nanoseconds
you will be permanently banned.
Your ip has been logged
THREAD CLOSED

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## TMS

You been on the pop again martindwilson?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## martindwilson

of course..isn't it a day with a "Y" in it?

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## FDibbins

Well thats just not fair then  :Frown:   coz if anyone started a post to me with Frank, I would not know who they were talking to.  Now, if they used Ford, then the rule should apply (although Im pretty sure we have a few Frank's onthe forum) :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## :) Sixthsense :)

@ Fotis1991,

*1)* Can you please explain the reason for deleting the posts in that thread?

http://www.excelforum.com/excel-form...52-sumifs.html

I Request the mod/Admin *not to delete or remove any contents* from post when the posts which got a reply.

I saw this in older thread where a member has edited the content after the response.  But teylyn reinstated those words back again *saying that editing is not allowed when a post received a reply*.  Can you please consider this approach and reinstate all those post on that thread?

Here it is Refer Post #9 thread.

http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...hese-days.html


*2)* I know you wanted to save AliGW from infractions, _because of_ her _attacking words_, but your deletion created a bad image on a FG (on me as well) by way of deleting those threads.  But _I like the way how Alan handled the below_ thread.

http://www.excelforum.com/excel-form...ml#post3610806



*3)* I am really surprised that *you stated sumifs is a valid thread title*.  But I have _not raised any objection_ since as a moderator _I given respect to your words_.

But I don't know when the excel function names became a valid thread title.  _If sumifs is a valid thread title then every excel function names should be a valid thread title_.  Do you agree that?  If so then please accept the below as Valid Thread Titles

IF
Len
Count
Sum
N
T
NA
DB
ERF
EXP

And lot moreBut _this thread is mainly targeted on the post in which I am involved_, so raised the above questions.



*4)* I believe you have _soft deleted those posts_, _I request you / Other Mod / Admin to get back those posts for forum view to prove my politeness_ which I made on that thread and also the aggressiveness of the other one.







> It's a shame there isn't a rule about* unnecessary harassment of forum members via PM*. ;-)



There is a difference between *alert* and *harassment*.  In the above case it's an *alert* not harassment!

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## Fotis1991

* Sixthsense*

I am really surprised with your post. Tooks me some time to decide if i'll reply on this or not. I would prefer to don't do that but unfortunately-as *you* choosed this way and as many members readed your post-i have to give a reply which i'll try to be soft, respecting your constribution in the forum and the (many) discussions that we had about many issues.

1) 



> Can you please explain the reason for deleting the posts in that thread?



As i explained at that thread. 



> Nothing to add in the thread.







> ..I saw this in older thread where a member has edited the content after the response. But teylyn ...



It's something *completely* different. I didn't edited any post in that thread. Where did you see that?

2)




> ...2) I know you wanted to save AliGW from infractions,....



That's quite correct(even that-as you see-AliGW not even realised that but (s)he attacked to me)-as you also do-, but is also correct that your pm's to her-him could be against rule#4.....

Thanks both of you for your attack for this. I promise next time to give infractions for such reasons and don't try to do something more soft...like i did in that thread.

I aggree that Alan handleded that very well but i don't see why that is the same as the thread that we are talking about.

3) 





> ..3) I am really surprised that you stated sumifs is a valid thread title. But I have not raised any objection since as a moderator I given respect to your words.



Thanks for that. In Mod's forum we have discussed about acceptable titles and Admin's suggestion is to be soft with this..If you look some months back in water cooler section you'll find at least one thread that i had the same questions like you. As a Moderator i have to comply with the way that Admins-Owner, want.

4)

.



> ..4) I believe you have soft deleted those posts, I request you / Other Mod / Admin to get back those posts for forum view to prove my politeness



I don't intend to reverse my decision on that. Of course if The *ADMINS* feel that they have to do, pls feel free to do this.

And at the the end, i don't intend to ..run..after each your warning posts and clear the area from your canned replies which most of the times are not correct according the instuctions that ALL Mods have from the Admins and you don't know of course about these.

If you like to help us-and we thank you for this-pls just click the "Report Post" button and we'll do our job.

If you believe that i(we) don't do our job correctly let the Admin's know about that and let them to decide what they have to do about that.

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## TMS

We probably need to remember this is an open sub-forum and I feel that the discussion is perhaps at a point where we should draw a line.  If you there are one to one issues that need to be resolved, maybe they need to be continued in private.

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## :) Sixthsense :)

My Friend (Fotis),

Before posting that post (# 39) myself asked that question many times whether I can join or not...

But the person who started this thread taking this thread somewhere rather than accepting the truth.  Since I get involved in that thread I needed to make it clear about what went wrong and where?

Three things surprised me:-

1) You accepted the thread title in that thread - which made my claim useless.

2) He/She has not been given any infraction for giving such a comment against another member.  Even I am not interested to see that person getting any infractions and thats why tried to avoid all those conflicts by way of sending a PM's.  But when the person threatening the another member intentionally then me (as one of the member) got hurt with this type of insult.

3) You masked her errors by deleting those posts, which gives wrong impression for the readers that I had taken the Rules on my hand with utmost rigidity.  But if you read all my posts in that thread then surely I never crossed my politeness.

Ok... coming to your points...





> i'll try to be soft,



Please accept my apologies... If I made it rude in post #39.  As you know, that is not my intention!





> It's something completely different. I didn't edited any post in that thread. Where did you see that?



Friend, you have not edited anything instead you masked her errors by way of deleting the posts.





> That's quite correct(even that-as you see-AliGW not even realised that but (s)he attacked to me)-as you also do-, but is also correct that *your pm's to her-him could be against rule#4.....*



I think you are mis-interpreting the Rule #4 content.  If PM's a person is offence according to forum rule then I am unable to understand the need of PM's facility  :Confused:  It can be disabled for all except mod/admin.





> Thanks both of you for your attack for this. I promise next time to give infractions for such reasons and don't try to do something more soft...like i did in that thread.



The thing is that you shown the favour completely to one person (I know because of your kindness to avoid the infraction) but the person projected it in different way by way of starting this thread.





> I agree that Alan handleded that very well but i don't see why that is the same as the thread that we are talking about.



I expected the kind of action which I stated above in the Post 2





> I don't intend to reverse my decision on that.



You made suggestion to start a thread in SFI section and this thread is growing without knowing the fact with lot of mis-interpretation against the enforcement of Rule applied by (me) as a Non Moderator.  Anyhow I made the point clear that nothing has gone rude in that thread from my end.





> i don't intend to ..run..after each your warning posts and clear the area from your canned replies



Sorry (to you and all other mod/admin) for causing that pain till now.  From my end, you never see even a single one (Moderation Canned Replies) from my end this second onwards!





> If you like to help us-and we thank you for this-pls just click the "Report Post" button



Sorry, I don't want to do that also and get in controversy like this.





> If you believe that i(we) don't do our job correctly



Sorry my friend, I am not here to find fault on others and that is not my intention also, just wanted to do some kind of help with my limited knowledge about excel.

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## Fotis1991

I could not NEVER say anything about your Excel Skills my friend. *Who am i* to do this?

Now i'll do what TMS suggested. Step back! There is no sense to continue on this as TMS suggested.

All of us, said our opinions so i believe also(like TMS) that this issue is finished.

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## Pepe Le Mokko

This thread looks like " déjà-vu"  :Smilie: . It's subject pops up once in a while, perhaps when the season is about to change ?

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## ragulduy

It seems that several times in threads of this nature something along the lines of:
"This was discussed in our private sub-forum and it was decided that the admin/moderators should interpret the rules as follows..."
or:
"After discussion moderators were told..."

Perhaps it would be sensible to post in the public section/announcements detailing the results of these discussions and how to interpret the rules. Maybe it would be easier for "regular" forum members to understand or at least follow the way the rules are enforced if they understood how the moderators are following the unwritten rules, or the additional rules behind the scenes.

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## TMS

> following the unwritten rules, or the additional rules behind the scenes



That's a bit of an indictment, isn't it?  Should anyone be enforcing unwritten rules or "additional rules"?

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## ragulduy

@TMS

I guess that is kind of the point I was trying to make, in that the additional unwritten stuff relating to the rules that are sometimes given as a reason behind why something was done this way or that way, should be communicated.

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## TMS

@ragulduy: agreed

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## Mad-Mizer

In my short time here I've seen moderator Fotis get upset at a member for a thread title so I thought, why not remind an OP about tags, only to be ignored to the point where a solution was given.  Thus, making all this pointless.  See here.  In the future, I'm not going to bother with forum rules as they obviously don't really apply, even though this site is quite moderator heavy.  This leads me to ask, are rules only enforced by moderators when they see fit or if their moods are sour?  Because Fotis seems to work that way.  Not that I want to call out only Fotis but my reference is from here.  

So, do I bother with forum rules?  If I don't, will I be singled out and slapped with penalties?  Is there no consistency here?

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## john55

Mad-Mizer, from time to time I've  reminded of enclosig the code in code tags or changing the title. nope, I am not a mod but I,ve done it because ...because these are the forum rules. Reading these I think it's not a very good idea and I'll stop warning.

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## Mad-Mizer

So I'm not the only person to feel this way.  Hmm, interesting.

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## romperstomper

If you're not a moderator or guru, and it bothers you that you may get ignored when trying to enforce the rules, you've got two choices, I think:
1. Don't bother - there is no obligation for you to do so.
2. Report anyone who ignores your requests.
I know which one I'd choose.  :Wink: 

FWIW, being a moderator is a thankless task and anyone who takes it on always runs the risk of upsetting someone - assuming they actually moderate, of course.

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